Lower/Upper or Full body?

[houzi]

Long time listener, first time caller. Apologies if this is in the wrong section.
30, Male, 6'2, 110kg. 1RMs: Squat 220kg, Bench 150kg, Deads 230kg.

For the past year Ive been running 4x a week Full body splits, along the lines of:
Mon: Sq 1, BP 1
Tues: DL 1, BP Var
Thurs: Sq 2, BP 2
Fri: DL 2, BP Var
During this time my squat made decent progress, my deadlift went no where, Bench made small progress.

Recently I switched to Lower Upper 4x/week and over the course of 6 weeks added 10kg to my Squat 5RM, 5kg to my Bench 6RM and 5kg to my Deadlift 6RM. This was very notable for my DL since I had added 0kg to an E1RM for months.

My question is, when is it appropriate to prescribe Lower Upper splits for an individual vs. Full Body?
Juggernaut put out a YT video on program design and frequency and seem to prescribe less frequency for their taller, heavier athletes (not sure if i fall into that category), while BBM seem to prescribe all people with a High Freq approach, regardless of height and weight.

[cole]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3288

i have run that exact 4 day full body template a lot, with success. i have also used upper lower splits with success. in a short summary, U/L splits allow more week to week recovery, therfore i was able to run it longer without deload/restructure. However, the stress was not spread out as evenly through the week and i always felt that the upper sessions were too easy and the lower sessions were too tough.

all in all i prefer a full body, as each session produces an evenly spread out, appropriate amount of stress and physically feels better and more rewarding. if i do the 4 day, i tend to accumulate fatigue much faster, and have to either use lower intensities or deload frequently otherwise i burn out. a 3 day full body for me is more sustainable for long term programming (i can run a 3 day HLM for 12 weeks, 4 day full body never seems to last more than 6 weeks before needing adjustment)

this is only my thoughts, and i am just an average intermediate, not an expert

[mgil]

@houzi solid first post.

A lot of this, imo, depends on the lifter. Some people can make good progress doing a full body routine daily and some need splits. Personally, I like doing full body stuff as well, but I recognize that I am usually only focusing on one lift in that session anyhow and the other is kinda fluff.

So my take would be that it’s going to depend on the lifter, where they are at in their training history, and how much time they have in the gym.

[TheDuke]

One thing that doesn't make sense for me when talking about full body sessions, is doing more volume for lower body than upper body in a single training session. And that volume comes from main lifts or their variations, which makes it even harder.

For example, both BBM and Nuckols, have training days like squat, bench, deadlift variation.
IMO that's a hard session, and if you wanna get jacked and have a big bench, not a good choice.
If you are really into powerlifting, and wanna a big squat and deadlift, sure.

But for a casual lifter who wants a big bench, beach muscles and solid lower body strength, I like better something like this:
Day 1 - bench/bench variation, squat, bro work

Day 2 - bench/bench variation, deadlift variation, bro work

Day 3 - bench/bench variation, squat variation, bro work

Day 4 - bench/bench variation, deadlift, bro work

[TheDuke]

i have run that exact 4 day full body template a lot, with
all in all i prefer a full body, as each session produces an evenly spread out, appropriate amount of stress and physically feels better and more rewarding. if i do the 4 day, i tend to accumulate fatigue much faster, and have to either use lower intensities or deload frequently otherwise i burn out. a 3 day full body for me is more sustainable for long term programming (i can run a 3 day HLM for 12 weeks, 4 day full body never seems to last more than 6 weeks before needing adjustment)

This seems strange.
My training history is mostly 3 day full body, and when I start lifting again I'm planning to do 4 day full body, because it seems like I can spread training stress better, and recover better.

If I do squat, bench, deadlift variation in a single session, that's tough.
But if I do one day bench/squat, rest 48-72 hours, and then do bench/deadlift variation, not so tough.

[BCStrength]

For what my input is worth, I started off with upper/lower sessions and since changed to 4 day full body and I much prefer how the stress feels more evenly spread out.
Weekly for me I have 4 upper pushes, 4 upper pulls, 2 squats, 2 deadlifts, pluss fluff work
Daily its 2 main lifts then upper back and then fluff work of choice at the end of sessions, hamstrings abs arms etc

The 2 main lifts organised like this...

Day 1
Comp Squat - top single & backoffs
Comp Bench - top single & backoffs
Day 2
Comp Deadlift - top single & backoffs
Overhead Press - heavy moderate volume
Day 3
Squat Variation (eg Pause/SSB) - moderate intensity volume
Bench Variation (eg Football Bar/Long Pause) - moderate intensity volume
Day 4
Deadlift Variation (eg Stiff Leg/Pause) - moderate intensity volume
Press/Bench Variation (eg Incline/Close Grip/Dumbbell) - lower intensity higher reps volume

[TheDuke]

Nice program there buddy

[houzi]

Ive found my Squat has been the one lift that has always been consistently improving, and Im wondering if that is because its always my first lift of the week, or performed after a day/days of rest. Meanwhile as my Main Squat on Day 1 increased, my Main Deadlift on Day 2 began to stall and plateau. After months of spinning my wheels this lead me to return to Lower Upper to see if i could break the plateau, and it worked.

Now admittedly, this could be a programming issue where im going too heavy on both days, or too much volume or something. Im doing my own programming, and im far from an expert. However my own Lower Upper Programming worked almost instantly.

[perman]

One thing that doesn't make sense for me when talking about full body sessions, is doing more volume for lower body than upper body in a single training session. And that volume comes from main lifts or their variations, which makes it even harder.

For example, both BBM and Nuckols, have training days like squat, bench, deadlift variation.
IMO that's a hard session, and if you wanna get jacked and have a big bench, not a good choice.
If you are really into powerlifting, and wanna a big squat and deadlift, sure.

But for a casual lifter who wants a big bench, beach muscles and solid lower body strength, I like better something like this:
Day 1 - bench/bench variation, squat, bro work

Day 2 - bench/bench variation, deadlift variation, bro work

Day 3 - bench/bench variation, squat variation, bro work

Day 4 - bench/bench variation, deadlift, bro work

While I agree with this mostly, on a 3-day program, if all your days are upper body dominant, squat and/or deadlift may suffer from overall lack of volume. You need to be diligent about training frequently for only 1 lower body exercise per session to be a sufficient stimulus for both lower body lifts.

I have come to the same conclusion on cuts though. Two lower body exercises in a single session can be pretty exhausting then.

[houzi]

Personally, I like doing full body stuff as well, but I recognize that I am usually only focusing on one lift in that session anyhow and the other is kinda fluff.

So my take would be that it’s going to depend on the lifter, where they are at in their training history, and how much time they have in the gym.

That was another reason for switching to Lower Upper. When doing Day 1 with Main Squats and Main Bench, I would be pretty tired by the time I got to benching. Not exhausted mind, but definately not fresh.
Once again, this could just be my own foolish programming decisions, same as with feeling fatigued for the next days DL session.

I feel my best option moving forward is to follow a template made by people who know what theyre doing.

[BCStrength]

That was another reason for switching to Lower Upper. When doing Day 1 with Main Squats and Main Bench, I would be pretty tired by the time I got to benching. Not exhausted mind, but definately not fresh.
Once again, this could just be my own foolish programming decisions, same as with feeling fatigued for the next days DL session.
I feel my best option moving forward is to follow a template made by people who know what theyre doing.

I'd imagine that my day 2 deadlift would suffer if I went balls out on the squats day 1, but I tend to stick around rpe 7 on my backoff sets, and a single @8 isnt that stressful to me if Im true to my ratings and just taking whatever is there on the day.

[TheDuke]

While I agree with this mostly, on a 3-day program, if all your days are upper body dominant, squat and/or deadlift may suffer from overall lack of volume. You need to be diligent about training frequently for only 1 lower body exercise per session to be a sufficient stimulus for both lower body lifts.

Volume for lower body stays the same in a 4-day setup like in the 3-day setup, but upper body gets more volume, which should be good, since we all agree that you can handle more volume for upper body.

And all your days are not upper body dominant, in a sense if you do something like cgbp, deadlift, seated rows + arms, is that really upper body dominant since all upper body is assistance and variation, which shouldn't be heavy?
Yea most of the work and volume is for upper body, but the main(heaviest) lift of the day is the deadlift.

[perman]

While I agree with this mostly, on a 3-day program, if all your days are upper body dominant, squat and/or deadlift may suffer from overall lack of volume. You need to be diligent about training frequently for only 1 lower body exercise per session to be a sufficient stimulus for both lower body lifts.

Volume for lower body stays the same in a 4-day setup like in the 3-day setup, but upper body gets more volume, which should be good, since we all agree that you can handle more volume for upper body.

And all your days are not upper body dominant, in a sense if you do something like cgbp, deadlift, seated rows + arms, is that really upper body dominant since all upper body is assistance and variation, which shouldn't be heavy?
Yea most of the work and volume is for upper body, but the main(heaviest) lift of the day is the deadlift.

I mean upper body dominant in the sense of the amount of hard sets you provide them. Sure, deadlifts are harder, and it's still a good fullbody stimulus with only 1 lower body slot. But if you train few days a weeks you might get kind of low lower body gains.

I wasn't critiquing the 4 day setup, only pointing out that limiting yourself to 1 lower body exercise slot every session as a rule might not work well for both squats and deadlifts if you're not training many times a week.

[TheGloriousW]

I'll preface this by saying I don't know anything.

I was doing a 4 day upper/lower split. I just found that doing each lift 2x per week didn't seem frequent enough. Plus squatting and deadlifting on the same day was not fun. I did swap things around but that didn't help with the frequency.

Now I am doing a 3 day full body routine spread over 5 days. Bench 3x, squat 3x, DL 2x, OHP 2x per week (plus back work). My main lift is always paired with a volume variant of the second lift. I feel like I am getting somewhere without beating myself up.

[mgil]

Personally, I like doing full body stuff as well, but I recognize that I am usually only focusing on one lift in that session anyhow and the other is kinda fluff.

So my take would be that it’s going to depend on the lifter, where they are at in their training history, and how much time they have in the gym.

That was another reason for switching to Lower Upper. When doing Day 1 with Main Squats and Main Bench, I would be pretty tired by the time I got to benching. Not exhausted mind, but definately not fresh.
Once again, this could just be my own foolish programming decisions, same as with feeling fatigued for the next days DL session.

I feel my best option moving forward is to follow a template made by people who know what theyre doing.

Once you’re sufficiently strong, it’s best to mix up the dosages for the full body sessions.

In this forum is the “one trick...” thread for HML. The best long term approach, imo, is to do H in upper and L in lower. If M in lower is used, M or L in upper. Lower steals more energy than upper.

[KarlM]

Personally, I like doing full body stuff as well, but I recognize that I am usually only focusing on one lift in that session anyhow and the other is kinda fluff.

So my take would be that it’s going to depend on the lifter, where they are at in their training history, and how much time they have in the gym.

That was another reason for switching to Lower Upper. When doing Day 1 with Main Squats and Main Bench, I would be pretty tired by the time I got to benching. Not exhausted mind, but definately not fresh.
Once again, this could just be my own foolish programming decisions, same as with feeling fatigued for the next days DL session.

I feel my best option moving forward is to follow a template made by people who know what theyre doing.

Once you’re sufficiently strong, it’s best to mix up the dosages for the full body sessions.

In this forum is the “one trick...” thread for HML. The best long term approach, imo, is to do H in upper and L in lower. If M in lower is used, M or L in upper. Lower steals more energy than upper.

Yeah, strongly agree. If you're peaking for a meet using an HLM approach, however, it's probably good to at least group heavy bench and heavy squat on your anticipated meet day to prepare for meet performance.

[mgil]

@KarlM, good point.

If you’re working towards a meet you can start rotating the sessions and dialing down volume so that you can target some H/H/H sessions in the last block.

[Cody]

My question is, when is it appropriate to prescribe Lower Upper splits for an individual vs. Full Body?

When that individual responds better to one, you Rx that one. The only way to know is to try. There is no "right" answer just like there is no "best" program.

Individual variation is real.

[Wilhelm]

If you're peaking for a meet using an HLM approach, however, it's probably good to at least group heavy bench and heavy squat on your anticipated meet day to prepare for meet performance.

*After i typed this, i realised HLM is probably not the same as HPS.
Oh well, i won't pass on a chance to offer my $.02
***

I switch out H days for a second S day pre peak, and increase intensity of the P day singles.
Basically i lp the singles, if that makes sense.

Dropping H day is the first reduction in volume, and you can reduce things from the S days as you go, and find necessary.
I'm doing all S day for bench now though, with no meet in sight.
It's an experiment, but i have a good feeling about it.

So P day ends up being kind of a mock meet day, really.
But with added DL worksets.

[houzi]

So Im looking at the RTS Intermediate/ new BBM templates as a possible option. Would it be feasible to re-arrange that to Lower Upper, or am I better off just committing to Full Body and not re-arranging a program put together by far smarter people?