Running thread

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I gather that it's basically impossible to lift to any reasonable degree of proficiency AND train running at the same time?

How did you come to that conclusion ?

I dont know anything about running but aren't there counterexamples to that statement ? Like Nsuns doing 5 minutes mile followed by a 6 plate deadlift in the same week or something.

[perman]

Low volume, high intensity work. Knock out ascending sets to a heavy max set, maybe one backoff set, move on. Volume is your enemy if you are doing a lot of running. You may lose a little in the lead up to a marathon or half marathon but overall you should be fine. Also know that you will probably feel a little run down initially but you will recover as you adjust to doing both. Theoretically you are using different muscle fibres for running than for lifting and it is just overall training capacity that you have to watch. You adjust, just don't overdo it initially.

That sounds right for lower body lifts at least.

Reckon your upper body lifts can be blasted harder while running though.

[JohnHelton]

I gather that it's basically impossible to lift to any reasonable degree of proficiency AND train running at the same time?

How did you come to that conclusion ?

I dont know anything about running but aren't there counterexamples to that statement ? Like Nsuns doing 5 minutes mile followed by a 6 plate deadlift in the same week or something.

Fergus Crawley is a counterexample.

https://www.instagram.com/ferguscrawley/
https://www.youtube.com/@ferguscrawley95

Pretty crazy.

[JohnHelton]

So I've taken up running again. I ran for 14 years and then stopped when I started powerlifting 6.5 years ago. My goal is to stay strong while being able to run at a high volume. I'm going to be slowly pushing my volume up in terms of hours per week running, training >= 80% at a low heart rate. Right now that is a painfully slow speed, but it will improve with time.

Previously, when I ran I wasn't as meticulous about the process. However, since powerlifting I have a different mindset. Autoregulation is everything. The parallels between the two endeavors are great. The big variables are volume, intensity and frequency.

I really think with appropriate training I can be faster than I was before, even though I am older now. 4:07 was my best marathon time. We'll see if I can do better than that.

[Zak]

I guess I have an unorthodox view of this, but I do not believe distance running and strength training are incompatible at all, rather that running is more likely to help than hurt, provided:

1. you start easy and progress slowly; and
2. you eat enough to at least maintain bodyweight.

I always feel better, sleep better, and make better progress in terms of strength when I am doing more conditioning, including running. Note that my running is nothing that would impress a serious runner any more than their lifting would impress me.

But my joints feel better, especially knees and hips, and probably the big point, I am able to eat more. This is the big one because of another unorthodox belief of mine, which is that a calorie surplus isn't anabolic, food is anabolic. Eating more food, irrespective of calorie balance, gives me a better shot at getting bigger and stronger. This phenomenon has been termed "energy flux" and other names through the years, and in my experience there's something to it.

Bottom line for me, at least up to say 30-ish miles a week (provided you work up to that,) you have no reason to expect a hit to your strength and if it happens it's either insufficient calories or self-fulfilling prophecy.

[JohnHelton]

@Zak Being able to eat more is part of my motivation. I love to eat. Lifting alone doesn't burn enough calories for me.

[houzi]

Barbell Medicine told me to fuck off, but I gather that it's basically impossible to lift to any reasonable degree of proficiency AND train running at the same time?

I want to be benching and deadlifting on top of running (I want to keep my deadlift 1RM above 400 in perpetuity) but I'm not sure what that programming would even look like while training for a half marathon.

My average pace is creeping closer to 7 minutes per mile (!!!) but I'm beginning to noticeably atrophy after a year or so of not lifting. I fucking loved being strong but I love the feeling of freedom and release running gives me more. I just don't want to turn into a flabby little skeleton lol.

Theres a reddit user called dadliftsnruns I think who is both a marathon runner and a 700lb+ deadlifter. If you can find his Overtrained Deadlift Everyday DLED r/weightroom post, as well as his other posts which link to his instagram, you can see what he does with his approach to training.

I should add that he seems to be a bit of an outlier, but might be worth checking regardless.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Barbell Medicine told me to fuck off, but I gather that it's basically impossible to lift to any reasonable degree of proficiency AND train running at the same time?

I want to be benching and deadlifting on top of running (I want to keep my deadlift 1RM above 400 in perpetuity) but I'm not sure what that programming would even look like while training for a half marathon.

My average pace is creeping closer to 7 minutes per mile (!!!) but I'm beginning to noticeably atrophy after a year or so of not lifting. I fucking loved being strong but I love the feeling of freedom and release running gives me more. I just don't want to turn into a flabby little skeleton lol.

Theres a reddit user called dadliftsnruns I think who is both a marathon runner and a 700lb+ deadlifter. If you can find his Overtrained Deadlift Everyday DLED r/weightroom post, as well as his other posts which link to his instagram, you can see what he does with his approach to training.

I should add that he seems to be a bit of an outlier, but might be worth checking regardless.

Yep, that's the alternate name of NSuns that I was mentioning (I think).

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I guess I have an unorthodox view of this, but I do not believe distance running and strength training are incompatible at all, rather that running is more likely to help than hurt, provided:

1. you start easy and progress slowly; and
2. you eat enough to at least maintain bodyweight.

I always feel better, sleep better, and make better progress in terms of strength when I am doing more conditioning, including running. Note that my running is nothing that would impress a serious runner any more than their lifting would impress me.

But my joints feel better, especially knees and hips, and probably the big point, I am able to eat more. This is the big one because of another unorthodox belief of mine, which is that a calorie surplus isn't anabolic, food is anabolic. Eating more food, irrespective of calorie balance, gives me a better shot at getting bigger and stronger. This phenomenon has been termed "energy flux" and other names through the years, and in my experience there's something to it.

Bottom line for me, at least up to say 30-ish miles a week (provided you work up to that,) you have no reason to expect a hit to your strength and if it happens it's either insufficient calories or self-fulfilling prophecy.

My broscience for why eating more and increasing your expenditure to equal the calories in to the calories out being better is that eating more allows you to take in more nutrients. If you are on a very restricted caloric total, you almost automatically have to eat less nutrients.

Another broscience is that increasing your energy expenditure (at least by natural means) usually forces you to perform more work per day, and by performing more work, you get a better work capacity, which in turn enables you to hit the gym harder and longer. And work is, without a doubt, anabolic.

[AlanMackey]

So I've taken up running again. I ran for 14 years and then stopped when I started powerlifting 6.5 years ago. My goal is to stay strong while being able to run at a high volume. I'm going to be slowly pushing my volume up in terms of hours per week running, training >= 80% at a low heart rate. Right now that is a painfully slow speed, but it will improve with time.

Previously, when I ran I wasn't as meticulous about the process. However, since powerlifting I have a different mindset. Autoregulation is everything. The parallels between the two endeavors are great. The big variables are volume, intensity and frequency.

I really think with appropriate training I can be faster than I was before, even though I am older now. 4:07 was my best marathon time. We'll see if I can do better than that.

I will follow your training log closely.

[hector]

Just stumbled on this thread.

If anyone has updates to their efforts at combining running and lifting I’d love to hear about it.

On 01 January this year I ran for the first time in quite awhile. Was/am also significantly overweight. It was really just a minute or two of running followed by massive 5 minute walk breaks. And it was a challenge!

Here we are in August and my weight is largely unchanged. I’m a little stronger. Whenever I decided to pull heavy this year I could still pull in the 500s without an issue. I ran an 11 mile race and loved it, albeit at a slow pace.

I don’t think my failure to vastly improve strength or do something crazy like complete a marathon were due to bad programming. I see my marginal gains as a small victory in a year when work and life issues (and by extension, sleep and recovery) were crazy. I would actually add that I think running is great for mental health when life’s difficulty level increments upward.

I am at a point where I regularly run > 5 miles in an hour with intermittent walk breaks. (So running pace was just over 10min/mile, probably 8 minutes of walk breaks during the hour.) This is terrible for a runner, might not even count as running, but represents a vast improvement for someone formerly sedentary. Resting pulse rate dropped from high 70s to 60/61, sometimes even 58/59. A few times, early in the morning, I did a 7.5 mile run to the next town over and then treated myself to Starbucks. This might sound lame as fuck, but is lots of fun once you get to like (or at least not abhor) running.

Going forward for the rest of the year I’m going to switch from longer (> 5 miles) distance and start focusing on speed and the shorter 5k distance. Just did a 5k oriented workout the other day and it was fun to mix things up.

[AlanMackey]

Just stumbled on this thread.

If anyone has updates to their efforts at combining running and lifting I’d love to hear about it.

On 01 January this year I ran for the first time in quite awhile. Was/am also significantly overweight. It was really just a minute or two of running followed by massive 5 minute walk breaks. And it was a challenge!

Here we are in August and my weight is largely unchanged. I’m a little stronger. Whenever I decided to pull heavy this year I could still pull in the 500s without an issue. I ran an 11 mile race and loved it, albeit at a slow pace.

I don’t think my failure to vastly improve strength or do something crazy like complete a marathon were due to bad programming. I see my marginal gains as a small victory in a year when work and life issues (and by extension, sleep and recovery) were crazy. I would actually add that I think running is great for mental health when life’s difficulty level increments upward.

I am at a point where I regularly run > 5 miles in an hour with intermittent walk breaks. (So running pace was just over 10min/mile, probably 8 minutes of walk breaks during the hour.) This is terrible for a runner, might not even count as running, but represents a vast improvement for someone formerly sedentary. Resting pulse rate dropped from high 70s to 60/61, sometimes even 58/59. A few times, early in the morning, I did a 7.5 mile run to the next town over and then treated myself to Starbucks. This might sound lame as fuck, but is lots of fun once you get to like (or at least not abhor) running.

Going forward for the rest of the year I’m going to switch from longer (> 5 miles) distance and start focusing on speed and the shorter 5k distance. Just did a 5k oriented workout the other day and it was fun to mix things up.

All I see here is great progress and consistency. Both of which puts you way ahead of the pack.

[JohnHelton]

@hector

I am up to 15 miles per week, but I will be bumping that to 17.5-20 miles starting next week. I am also adding a bit of speed work as I have been base building all summer. I signed up for AI coaching from https://vdoto2.com/ to do my programming. It is pretty amazing. $100 for a year. Dr. Jack Daniels is behind it. As of right now I am planning to run a half marathon in December. I am lifting twice per week now. Tuesday is squat and bench. Friday is bench and deadlift. For squat and bench I'm using VBT, both with a 15% drop. 5 sets for bench and 3 sets for squat. I've started light, but plan to add 2.5kg/5lb per week. I doubt I will increase strength with this setup, but I hope to lose as little as possible.

I have to admit that I have been inspired by Nick Bare and the crazy stuff he has done. I'm sure I will end up pushing it too far, but I am enjoying the journey. The goal is to never stop lifting. I have no interest in just being a mediocre endurance athlete. However, I do think it would be cool to be much stronger and have better endurance than most.

[hector]

Just stumbled on this thread.

If anyone has updates to their efforts at combining running and lifting I’d love to hear about it.

On 01 January this year I ran for the first time in quite awhile. Was/am also significantly overweight. It was really just a minute or two of running followed by massive 5 minute walk breaks. And it was a challenge!

Here we are in August and my weight is largely unchanged. I’m a little stronger. Whenever I decided to pull heavy this year I could still pull in the 500s without an issue. I ran an 11 mile race and loved it, albeit at a slow pace.

I don’t think my failure to vastly improve strength or do something crazy like complete a marathon were due to bad programming. I see my marginal gains as a small victory in a year when work and life issues (and by extension, sleep and recovery) were crazy. I would actually add that I think running is great for mental health when life’s difficulty level increments upward.

I am at a point where I regularly run > 5 miles in an hour with intermittent walk breaks. (So running pace was just over 10min/mile, probably 8 minutes of walk breaks during the hour.) This is terrible for a runner, might not even count as running, but represents a vast improvement for someone formerly sedentary. Resting pulse rate dropped from high 70s to 60/61, sometimes even 58/59. A few times, early in the morning, I did a 7.5 mile run to the next town over and then treated myself to Starbucks. This might sound lame as fuck, but is lots of fun once you get to like (or at least not abhor) running.

Going forward for the rest of the year I’m going to switch from longer (> 5 miles) distance and start focusing on speed and the shorter 5k distance. Just did a 5k oriented workout the other day and it was fun to mix things up.

All I see here is great progress and consistency. Both of which puts you way ahead of the pack.

@AlanMackey , thank you!

[hector]

@hector

I am up to 15 miles per week, but I will be bumping that to 17.5-20 miles starting next week. I am also adding a bit of speed work as I have been base building all summer. I signed up for AI coaching from https://vdoto2.com/ to do my programming. It is pretty amazing. $100 for a year. Dr. Jack Daniels is behind it. As of right now I am planning to run a half marathon in December. I am lifting twice per week now. Tuesday is squat and bench. Friday is bench and deadlift. For squat and bench I'm using VBT, both with a 15% drop. 5 sets for bench and 3 sets for squat. I've started light, but plan to add 2.5kg/5lb per week. I doubt I will increase strength with this setup, but I hope to lose as little as possible.

I have to admit that I have been inspired by Nick Bare and the crazy stuff he has done. I'm sure I will end up pushing it too far, but I am enjoying the journey. The goal is to never stop lifting. I have no interest in just being a mediocre endurance athlete. However, I do think it would be cool to be much stronger and have better endurance than most.

@johnhelton, I’ve never heard of that coaching service or Nick Bare. I will check out both. Thanks. Good luck with your half marathon!!!

[JohnHelton]

Thank you, @hector. I also should mention that I have been going back and forth between steady running and run/walk/run (Galloway Method). Everything that I have read says that run/walk/run is a great thing. Less injury risk and it makes volume more accessible. I have started to settle in on 2 min running with 30 sec walking (4:1 ratio). I only have to run about 10% faster than my target average pace with that ratio. That seems like a pretty good trade off in order to have routine walk breaks. In a race, I might push the running a bit longer so that the % increase can be even smaller. At a 9:1 ratio, the percentage increase is only 4.7%.

[asdf]

For years, I’ve been running track intervals (like 4 x 400m) after just a 1 mile warm-up. Recently, I extended my warm-up to a 5k, because I’m trying to get more training volume to improve my aerobic base. I assumed that the intervals would be harder to complete after a 5k than after 1 mile. To my surprise, I find that intervals after the 5k are much easier and feel better on my muscles and joints, particularly if I'm experiencing DOMS from lifting at the start of my run.

I'm old, and I run first thing in the morning. I guess my body just performs better after a longer warm-up. Wish I had known this years ago.

[JimRiley]

Thank you, @hector. I also should mention that I have been going back and forth between steady running and run/walk/run (Galloway Method). Everything that I have read says that run/walk/run is a great thing. Less injury risk and it makes volume more accessible. I have started to settle in on 2 min running with 30 sec walking (4:1 ratio). I only have to run about 10% faster than my target average pace with that ratio. That seems like a pretty good trade off in order to have routine walk breaks. In a race, I might push the running a bit longer so that the % increase can be even smaller. At a 9:1 ratio, the percentage increase is only 4.7%.

I also do the run/walk/run thing from time to time. I started doing it as a way to be proactive about walking breaks instead of groveling on until I had no choice, and only recently learned it had a name. It's easier mentally, you get to do the running bits faster than you would otherwise, and you pretty much break even on the pace. Great stuff!

[JimRiley]

For years, I’ve been running track intervals (like 4 x 400m) after just a 1 mile warm-up. Recently, I extended my warm-up to a 5k, because I’m trying to get more training volume to improve my aerobic base. I assumed that the intervals would be harder to complete after a 5k than after 1 mile. To my surprise, I find that intervals after the 5k are much easier and feel better on my muscles and joints, particularly if I'm experiencing DOMS from lifting at the start of my run.

I'm old, and I run first thing in the morning. I guess my body just performs better after a longer warm-up. Wish I had known this years ago.

I'm with you, only more so. I've been running for many years, but at the start of a run I still feel like a sedentary person who just decided to start doing cardio. It's 15 to 20 minutes before I can shift up to more than a dull plod, let alone interval pace!

Also, to me any form of exercise seems much harder first thing in the morning, especially running. Is your experience any different if you run later in the day?

[asdf]

Is your experience any different if you run later in the day?

Thanks for sharing your experience, and for the question.

I sometimes do trail runs in the afternoon, and yes, those generally feel better than the same run completed early in the AM. I expect the same would be true of intervals, but I can't test the hypothesis: the track I use is at a school and is only available in the early morning, before classes begin.