Grinders and form Nazis

Drafts that may or may not end up as full articles.

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zappey1
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Grinders and form Nazis

#1

Post by zappey1 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:34 pm

I appreciate good form. One of the fun parts to me about training is honing your craft over thousands of reps and hard hours put in the gym. Reading numerous books on how to lift better and more efficiently. Watching hundreds of hours of instructional videos on YouTube. Most importantly the visualization and the practice that goes into trying to perfect a few simple movements.

That being said there is a time when in our training when form will have to almost as a necessity break down in order for us to make progress. Maybe it is at the lockout of a PR deadlift. Or maybe it is trying to perfect the form of a new exercise that you have recently started trying to include into your workout routine. When ever it is as long as it is not overly dangerous it is never that big of a deal. As long as the majority of the exercises you preform are sound it is a justifiable means to make progress. We call these sets and reps Grinders. The Grinders of this workout become the solid reps and sets in the next program. If we only used weight that we could do with almost perfect form every time progress would almost assuradly grind to a stop.

Working on improving your form each workout should be as much of a goal as increasing the weight. But the occasional laps in form will occur and is okay. It is part of training. The form Nazi will have you believe that each set and rep should be perfect and if it is not then it should not be tried. That thinking will make sure you reach your lifting goals much slower if at all. The first time I benched 315 it was ugly. But by the 5th time I was hitting it with some solid form. Always keep it in your mind that to get stronger you have to be able to force your body into adaptations. Sometimes that involves forcing your body out of perfect form to do something new.

If you are a form Nazi please keep your comments to yourself. If you are asked for your opinion please feel free to share it. If it is not asked for please keep your ideologies and opinions to yourself. Most importantly of all for you form Nazis out there if you are going to comment on form please link a VIDEO OF YOUR OWN FORM. It is easy for people to comment on form then link videos of others lifting with perfect form. It is another to back up what you say with videos of your own perfect form hitting heavy weights.

If you find that ever set every workout is a Grinder. It should not take a form Nazi pointing out your form is shity for you to adjust the form. Grinders are not a licences to lift with sloppy form all the time. The secret to Grinders is that they are supposed to get better over workouts. If you look like a dang Halloween cat each time you deadlift then it is not Grinding it is shity form. But it is still not the form Nazis job to tell the lifter that their spinal cord might explode out of their back. The lifter has the responsibility to be cognizant enough to make the adjustment themselves.
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Last edited by zappey1 on Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JonnyRockets
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Re: Grinders and form Nazis

#2

Post by JonnyRockets » Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:08 am

Is this an unpublished ramble written by Rip 10 years ago?

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zappey1
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Re: Grinders and form Nazis

#3

Post by zappey1 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:31 am

JonnyRockets wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:08 am Is this an unpublished ramble written by Rip 10 years ago?
So your not a fan? :shock: I'm pretty sure Rip is pretty brutal on most form checks he does. I was thinking OE fitness, Infinite Elgintensity. Those dudes are supper funny and have built huge following over criticizing others form. But have very little footage of them doing anything unless it is very sub maximal.

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Re: Grinders and form Nazis

#4

Post by zappey1 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:31 am

JonnyRockets wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:08 am Is this an unpublished ramble written by Rip 10 years ago?
So your not a fan? :shock: I'm pretty sure Rip is pretty brutal on most form checks he does. I was thinking OE fitness, Infinite Elgintensity. Those dudes are supper funny and have built huge following over criticizing others form. But have very little footage of them doing anything unless it is very sub maximal.

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Re: Grinders and form Nazis

#5

Post by JonnyRockets » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:04 pm

The first paragraph is fine, it’s personal and interesting.

But then it gets a bit authoritative.

I think it’s absolutely possible to get stronger without grinding, and without ugly reps.

“there is a time when in our training when form will have to almost as a necessity break down in order for us to make progress”

“If we only used weight that we could do with almost perfect form every time progress would almost assuradly grind to a stop”

“Always keep it in your mind that to get stronger you have to be able to force your body into adaptations. Sometimes that involves forcing your body out of perfect form to do something new.”

I strongly disagree with this.

I don’t think the idea of forcing the body to get stronger is particularly helpful. It implies grinding is needed, when it now seems it’s unnecessary to even go over RPE 6.

The use of ‘we’ and ‘us’ smacks of SS.

Who is it that has a problem with a bit of a grindy 1RM? Elgin etc. tend to go after extreme examples and other weird shit. Besides, surely the ability to perform a lift has little bearing on the ability to coach or criticise a lift.

“as long as it is not overly dangerous it is never that big of a deal”

How can you define whether or not something is overly dangerous?

“The form Nazi will have you believe that each set and rep should be perfect and if it is not then it should not be tried. That thinking will make sure you reach your lifting goals much slower if at all.”

I think most people are over the idea of ‘perfect form’ by now, and can tell the difference between decent and something awful. Mike T’s 80% guideline is fine. Which that in mind, I don’t think anyone should be attempting sets they aren’t pretty sure they can complete with okay form. Failing reps in training is likely to be the result of an error in programming, recovery, or judgement. A comp or occasional max attempt is the time for questionable or failed reps.

Essentially I think it is written from a rather Asgarddian perspective, going for intensity driven progression as opposed to the more modern volume based approach. And I’m not really sure who it’s aimed at. Is it the grinders, or the commenters? The ‘we’ and ‘us’ of the article certainly doesn’t include me, and I loathe being included in something I disagree with (particularly SS related).

I’m obviously still quite bitter about the whole SS thing!

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zappey1
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Re: Grinders and form Nazis

#6

Post by zappey1 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:28 pm

I appreciate the feed back I will keep it in mind next draft I try to write. I love lifting and writing. I hope to get one draft out every few weeks or so. Maybe I have read to much SS stuff over the years and it still permeates my brain subconsciously!

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Re: Grinders and form Nazis

#7

Post by mgil » Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:15 pm

zappey1 wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:28 pm I appreciate the feed back I will keep it in mind next draft I try to write. I love lifting and writing. I hope to get one draft out every few weeks or so. Maybe I have read to much SS stuff over the years and it still permeates my brain subconsciously!
The draft is a good start and I think you’ve gotten some good feedback here.

In general, it seems best to approach the topic of strength training as something that is far from a solved problem and engage the audience in a way that you’re trying to work through a concept with them.

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Re: Grinders and form Nazis 2nd Draft

#8

Post by zappey1 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:35 pm

I appreciate good form. One of the fun parts to me about training is honing your craft over thousands of reps and hard hours put in the gym. Reading numerous books on how to lift better and more efficiently. Watching hundreds of hours of instructional videos on YouTube. Most importantly the visualization and the practice that goes into trying to perfect a few simple movements.

There is a time in my training when form as a necessity has broken down in order for me to make progress. I can remember quivering like a baby deer trying to walk for the first time when trying to lockout a 495 PR dead lift. I can recall trying to perfect the form of a new exercise that I recently started and feeling like Pee Wee Herman prancing around the weight room. Whenever it is if it is not overly dangerous (as in I'm not going to have to go to the doctor afterward) I never felt that it was big of a deal. If most of the exercises I was preforming are sound I tell myself that it is justifiable means to make progress. I and many people I lift with call these sets and reps Grinders. The Grinders of this workout become the solid reps and sets in the next program. If I only use weights that I can do with almost perfect form every time progress would almost assuredly grind to a stop.

Working on improving my form each workout has been one of my goals for a long time. As much of a goal as increasing the weight on the bar and should be for most people. But the occasional laps in form will occur and is okay. It is part of training. The form Nazi will tell you that each set and rep should be perfect and if it is not then it should not be tried. That all or nothing thinking will make sure you reach your lifting goals much slower if at all. The first time I benched 315 it was ugly. But by the 5th time I was hitting it with some solid form. I have a funny saying from a movie that was probably the most influential movie to me as a child. 1982's Conan the Barbarian. I Always think back to Conan pushing The Wheel of Pain. Did he always have perfect form all those years? Heck no he didn't! He kept grinding to force his mind and body to get stronger. No one is going to chain you to a giant wheel for years but that is the same mind set I use to force my body into adaptations. Sometimes that involves me forcing my body out of perfect form to do something new.

If you are a form Nazi or (think you might be) please keep your comments to yourself. If you are asked for your opinion, please feel free to share it. If it is not asked for please keep your ideologies and opinions to yourself. Most importantly of all for all form Nazis out there if you are going to comment on form please link a VIDEO OF YOUR OWN FORM. It is easy for people to comment on form then link videos of others lifting with perfect form. Or even worse to just roast people online behind their backs. It is another to back up what you say with videos of your own perfect form hitting impressive sets.

A cautionary word of advice for all you grinding barbarians out there. If you find that ever set every workout is a Grinder. It should not take a form Nazi pointing out your form is shity for you to adjust. Grinders are not a license to lift with sloppy form all the time. The secret to Grinders is that they are supposed to get better over workouts. If you look like a dang Halloween cat each time you deadlift, then it is not Grinding it is shity form. Shity form will not make Crom happy. But it is still not the form Nazis job to tell another lifter that their spinal cord might explode out of their back unless they are asked. The lifter has the responsibility to be cognizant enough to make the adjustment themselves.

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Re: Grinders and form Nazis

#9

Post by JohnHelton » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:50 pm

Grinding occasionally is fine. Good practice for when it is needed. Grinding all the time is bad unless your have amazing recovery ability. I don’t.

I agree with you about form Nazis. Stupid. Did you hit competition depth? Okay. Some people get super concerned with it like this is gymnastics or something. Not important. There are obvious errors that hurt your ability to lift more. Outside that, keep pushing. That said, there is very little form correction on this forum. We really aren’t into that. If one asks for a review, they will get plenty of opinions, but not otherwise.

Looks like you have strong lifts, @@zappey1. Do you have an Instagram account?

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zappey1
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Re: Grinders and form Nazis

#10

Post by zappey1 » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:00 pm

Thanks for the support!

No Instagram I'm kinda of new to social media I have a YouTube where I vlog my workouts and post competition footage, hiking videos and book reviews.
https://www.youtube.com/user/jacobzappey

I've had it quite along time so it is pretty cool to see how I have progressed over the years.

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Re: Grinders and form Nazis

#11

Post by KyleSchuant » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:02 pm

mgil wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:15 pm In general, it seems best to approach the topic of strength training as something that is far from a solved problem and engage the audience in a way that you’re trying to work through a concept with them.
That's well said, I like that.

Zappey, the way I think of it is: we should try to make it beautiful, but in the end it's barbells not ballet.

Or put another way, it's barbells not ballet, but we should try to make it beautiful.

Which you choose changes the emphasis and slant of it, depends which you feel is more true.

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Re: Grinders and form Nazis

#12

Post by zappey1 » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:29 am

KyleSchuant wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:02 pm
mgil wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:15 pm In general, it seems best to approach the topic of strength training as something that is far from a solved problem and engage the audience in a way that you’re trying to work through a concept with them.
That's well said, I like that.

Zappey, the way I think of it is: we should try to make it beautiful, but in the end it's barbells not ballet.

Or put another way, it's barbells not ballet, but we should try to make it beautiful.

Which you choose changes the emphasis and slant of it, depends which you feel is more true.
Thanks for the support I think the 2nd draft turned out much better

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Re: Grinders and form Nazis

#13

Post by Skid » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:57 pm

JonnyRockets wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:04 pm
I don’t think the idea of forcing the body to get stronger is particularly helpful. It implies grinding is needed, when it now seems it’s unnecessary to even go over RPE 6.
Are you kidding? How much you bench :lol:

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