Stupid Questions Thread

[hector]

How do i get a wider back? Pulls ups, Deadlifts and rows haven't worked yet, because i think`i let other muscles like the biceps take over the work and i also can't feel my back very well.
I have read that you have to train the back more like a bodybuilder, feeling the muscle and it can tolerate quite much volume. Also that the hands only work as hooks when pulling and you think of your elbows moving. A thumbless grip can help.
With thumbless grip doing pull ups or rowing i am pretty weak, but i think lowering the weight and feeling the muscle is the way to go. Any more tips?

Some thoughts on back work, some (most?) of which are not popular:

Your lats, rhomboids, and traps can take a tremendous amount of punishment. Doling out any less than that isn't going to get you where you want to go, and keeping your back work strict will make doling out that amount of punishment very difficult. I would keep at the pullups and rows, minimum twice a week, in the 6-10 rep range (but I don't object to going lower and have done a lot of barbell rows with very low reps), lots of sets, to failure, and feel free to extend the sets with rest pause or partial reps. You certainly want full extension on the eccentric, before initiating the next rep, but outside of that I'm all for doing whatever you have to do to move the weight, within reason.

I built most of my back width doing a shitload of pullups on a door, working against the friction. All reps from a dead hang.

If you can think of pulling your elbows back, rather than your hands, I guess that's better but I really don't think that it matters. Similar to how you'll feel every last lower body muscle after a heavy set of breathing squats for 20, going past failure with rest pause sets of rows will bring in every last part of your back that possible can assist, despite that you may think that you're pulling too much with your arms.

I agree with @mbasic regarding using straps, which will help with the above, and also using machines for extra work, since you can go fully apeshit on them with nearly no chance of injury. (I understand that you currently don't have access to machines.)

Fuck deadlifts for upper back work. You've mentioned that you're already deadlifting and yes you may get some thickness from it, but the deadlift is not an exercise to further pursue for this purpose, either in volume or in insanity like higher rep sets. If you must, consider doing your backoffs from a deficit.

Fuck "rowing" from the floor - I'm referring above to barbell rows from a hang (or with dumbbells, or with a T-bar).

Fuck a thumbless grip.

I repeat: Your lats, rhomboids, and traps can take a tremendous amount of punishment. Proceed accordingly.

F.
Rows and Deads are my entire back work.
This has given me a lot to think about.

Just to clarify, by "rowing from the floor" I mean Pendlay rows or whatever is the proper term / variations. I know lots of folks find value in them. I never did, at least not for hypertrophy. I think bodybuilder style barbell rows, and T-bar rows, which I know you do, are awesome.

I do strongly suggest adding a vertical pull, whether pullups (I don't do chin ups because they bother my wrists and elbows, fast) or heavy (sets of 10 or less reps) lat pulldowns if pullups are an issue due to elbow stuff or otherwise.

I think you’re right on.
I joined an $8/month globo just so I could use their treadmills and their lat pull-down. But I’ve been lazy and skipping the lat pull-down.

[Renascent]

Just to clarify, by "rowing from the floor" I mean Pendlay rows or whatever is the proper term / variations. I know lots of folks find value in them. I never did, at least not for hypertrophy. I think bodybuilder style barbell rows, and T-bar rows, which I know you do, are awesome.

Kinda figured you were specifically referring to Pendlay rows. I played around with them a few years ago before I got more comfortable with executing rows from a hang. It was my understanding that Pendlays are meant to build explosiveness when breaking the weight from the floor. I can't attest to how useful they are in that endeavor in the long run, but yeah... wasn't a fan. There was no carryover to the bench press or deadlift that I could discern, so it lost my interest, but maybe that wasn't the point.

I do strongly suggest adding a vertical pull

Thirded.

[mouse]

my understanding that Pendlays are meant to build explosiveness when breaking the weight from the floor.

This is why it's the only row variation I come back to, especially lately...

I hate doing rows from a hang, and I've ceased to think there is much value in heavy ass cheaty Ripperows...

I like them from the floor, semi-strict but fast, with a not-quite-slow-but-not-just-dropping-it eccentric...

[mbasic]

Do dips work your lats (some) ?

[OverheadDeadlifts]

Do dips work your lats (some) ?

I don’t think so but I’ve noticed they hammer the long head of the triceps fairly hard, to the point I had to stop doing them one time since it was starting to cause pain.

Since the lats and long head both attach around the armpit and both extend the shoulder, their doms can feel kinda similar.

[mbasic]

I get its primarly triceps, chest, delts, etc

But it appears yes, the lats are shortening here

[OverheadDeadlifts]

I get its primarly triceps, chest, delts, etc

But it appears yes, the lats are shortening here

Yeah they’re shortening on the eccentric but it’s eccentric contraction from the shoulder flexors that’s lowering you into the dip and reciprocal inhibition is telling the lats to chill so that the joint action can occur.

It’s like biceps in a bench press. They’re shortening as you lower the bar to your chest but they’re not doing anything. Unless you tried to pull the bar down to your chest faster than gravity or something.

[mbasic]

I get its primarily triceps, chest, delts, etc

But it appears yes, the lats are shortening here

Yeah they’re shortening on the eccentric

The lats are lengthening there in the dip ...look again.
Especially if your torso in very vertical.

Its a weird over-center thing ....once the humerus comes down all the way (say in the bottom of a chin up), and then goes beyond that point back behind the torso, the lats apparently are lengthening again as the humerus goes up.

They are not prime movers, but they are are doing a lot more than stabilization or antagonist-action (your biceps-bench analogy)

[EggMcMuffin]

Why do people underestimate my power on such a frequent basis? Is it due to having a meek demeanor? Any time I talk about my physical pursuits people look at me like I'm a moron. This is in like, relevant conversation as well, so it's not like I'm just randomly flexing on people. When I've brought up that I can pull 400+ people never believe me. I work a very physical job and people always step in for me like I'm gonna hurt myself when I'm picking heavy shit up. Is it just a function of being a naturally skinny dude? Now that I've lost weight I look just like a regular skinny dude. Be careful you'll hurt yourself!!!! No one even believes that I have run a half marathon. They just look at me like I'd give up during the first mile.

I get that this is sort of a weird, narcissistic thing to rant about, but it's really been getting to me lately...

[Hardartery]

Why do people underestimate my power on such a frequent basis? Is it due to having a meek demeanor? Any time I talk about my physical pursuits people look at me like I'm a moron. This is in like, relevant conversation as well, so it's not like I'm just randomly flexing on people. When I've brought up that I can pull 400+ people never believe me. I work a very physical job and people always step in for me like I'm gonna hurt myself when I'm picking heavy shit up. Is it just a function of being a naturally skinny dude? Now that I've lost weight I look just like a regular skinny dude. Be careful you'll hurt yourself!!!! No one even believes that I have run a half marathon. They just look at me like I'd give up during the first mile.

I get that this is sort of a weird, narcissistic thing to rant about, but it's really been getting to me lately...

Fuel my man, it's fuel. We all go through it. Use the force my man, it's cool to surprise people by doing things that they can't and don't think you can do either. It's more fun to watch people fail, and then do it for them casually.

[quikky]

Why do people underestimate my power on such a frequent basis? Is it due to having a meek demeanor? Any time I talk about my physical pursuits people look at me like I'm a moron. This is in like, relevant conversation as well, so it's not like I'm just randomly flexing on people. When I've brought up that I can pull 400+ people never believe me. I work a very physical job and people always step in for me like I'm gonna hurt myself when I'm picking heavy shit up. Is it just a function of being a naturally skinny dude? Now that I've lost weight I look just like a regular skinny dude. Be careful you'll hurt yourself!!!! No one even believes that I have run a half marathon. They just look at me like I'd give up during the first mile.

I get that this is sort of a weird, narcissistic thing to rant about, but it's really been getting to me lately...

My man, I assure you, no one cares about how much you can deadlift or whether you can run a half marathon. Do these things to challenge and better yourself, not for validation from others.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Why do people underestimate my power on such a frequent basis? Is it due to having a meek demeanor? Any time I talk about my physical pursuits people look at me like I'm a moron. This is in like, relevant conversation as well, so it's not like I'm just randomly flexing on people. When I've brought up that I can pull 400+ people never believe me. I work a very physical job and people always step in for me like I'm gonna hurt myself when I'm picking heavy shit up. Is it just a function of being a naturally skinny dude? Now that I've lost weight I look just like a regular skinny dude. Be careful you'll hurt yourself!!!! No one even believes that I have run a half marathon. They just look at me like I'd give up during the first mile.

I get that this is sort of a weird, narcissistic thing to rant about, but it's really been getting to me lately...

Probably because you don't look like a lifter (no offense). Clearly, based on your post, you care about how people look at you, i.e. you are vain. So am I and so are the overwhelming majority of people.I think that for some reason people who train for strength or for some other sports have a hard time admitting their own vanity. It's completely fine to train for vanity. We all want to look good and care about how people look at us (to some varying degrees).

Here are some ideas:
- slowly gain some weight (you're 160 lbs last time I remember)
- in general train at a high (ish) volume to focus on hypertrophy
- build your arms and shoulders: do a lot of extensions, curls and lateral raises

You have roughly the same strength as me and people ask me if I lift all the time. Vanity is OK. Go do something about it.

[OverheadDeadlifts]

I get its primarily triceps, chest, delts, etc

But it appears yes, the lats are shortening here

Yeah they’re shortening on the eccentric

The lats are lengthening there in the dip ...look again.
Especially if your torso in very vertical.

Its a weird over-center thing ....once the humerus comes down all the way (say in the bottom of a chin up), and then goes beyond that point back behind the torso, the lats apparently are lengthening again as the humerus goes up.

They are not prime movers, but they are are doing a lot more than stabilization or antagonist-action (your biceps-bench analogy)

But what is it that they’re doing? I could buy that if you were super upright and used a wide grip with lots of abduction/adduction and minimal flexion/extension like a quasi iron cross then the lats would be helping quite a lot as a shoulder abductor?

I guess they could help in a regular dip for the same reason but I think it would be like hamstrings in a squat. They only start helping when everything else is redlining since their contraction is fucking with the prime movers.

Can somebody please tear their Lat, do some dips and report back?

[mbasic]

I get its primarily triceps, chest, delts, etc

But it appears yes, the lats are shortening here

Yeah they’re shortening on the eccentric

The lats are lengthening there in the dip ...look again.
Especially if your torso in very vertical.

Its a weird over-center thing ....once the humerus comes down all the way (say in the bottom of a chin up), and then goes beyond that point back behind the torso, the lats apparently are lengthening again as the humerus goes up.

They are not prime movers, but they are are doing a lot more than stabilization or antagonist-action (your biceps-bench analogy)

But what is it that they’re doing? I could buy that if you were super upright and used a wide grip with lots of abduction/adduction and minimal flexion/extension like a quasi iron cross then the lats would be helping quite a lot as a shoulder abductor?

It seems simple to me: IF the insertion point of the lat on the humerus can get farther away from the lats' origin along the low back .... then yes, it can contract and contribute to driving the humerus downward in the dip.

I guess they could help in a regular dip for the same reason but I think it would be like hamstrings in a squat.
They only start helping when everything else is redlining since their contraction is fucking with the prime movers.

Hams are biarticular in the squat; lats are not.
I see what you are saying with the hams in the squat, maybe pulling the knees back when things get dicey.
But, here again, in the dip the humerus moves way behind you torso .... the pecs, ant.delts., and lats can all pull the humerus down to vertical position parallel with the torso. Once the humerus is vertical (next to the torso), the lats can't shrink anymore ...

Can somebody please tear their Lat, do some dips and report back?

It might hurt, but being that there are so many other contributors (pecs, tris, delts, etc) .... you could still complete reps quite easily I'd imagine.

[janoycresva]

Why do people underestimate my power on such a frequent basis? Is it due to having a meek demeanor? Any time I talk about my physical pursuits people look at me like I'm a moron. This is in like, relevant conversation as well, so it's not like I'm just randomly flexing on people. When I've brought up that I can pull 400+ people never believe me. I work a very physical job and people always step in for me like I'm gonna hurt myself when I'm picking heavy shit up. Is it just a function of being a naturally skinny dude? Now that I've lost weight I look just like a regular skinny dude. Be careful you'll hurt yourself!!!! No one even believes that I have run a half marathon. They just look at me like I'd give up during the first mile.

I get that this is sort of a weird, narcissistic thing to rant about, but it's really been getting to me lately...

probably because you don't look like you lift

ditch the strengthmemeing programs, do a proper bodybuilding routine and bulk up to 200lbs (slowly, over several years)

[ChasingCurls69]

Why do people underestimate my power on such a frequent basis? Is it due to having a meek demeanor? Any time I talk about my physical pursuits people look at me like I'm a moron. This is in like, relevant conversation as well, so it's not like I'm just randomly flexing on people. When I've brought up that I can pull 400+ people never believe me. I work a very physical job and people always step in for me like I'm gonna hurt myself when I'm picking heavy shit up. Is it just a function of being a naturally skinny dude? Now that I've lost weight I look just like a regular skinny dude. Be careful you'll hurt yourself!!!! No one even believes that I have run a half marathon. They just look at me like I'd give up during the first mile.

I get that this is sort of a weird, narcissistic thing to rant about, but it's really been getting to me lately...

What the other guys said about bodybuilding stuff, but probably just arm stuff. I had similar experiences, and the difference in how people perceive me at the same low bodyweight but +2 inches to arms is weirdly different. I just do myoreps or 2-3 straight sets with the last set taken to failure 1-2x/week now.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Why do people underestimate my power on such a frequent basis? Is it due to having a meek demeanor? Any time I talk about my physical pursuits people look at me like I'm a moron. This is in like, relevant conversation as well, so it's not like I'm just randomly flexing on people. When I've brought up that I can pull 400+ people never believe me. I work a very physical job and people always step in for me like I'm gonna hurt myself when I'm picking heavy shit up. Is it just a function of being a naturally skinny dude? Now that I've lost weight I look just like a regular skinny dude. Be careful you'll hurt yourself!!!! No one even believes that I have run a half marathon. They just look at me like I'd give up during the first mile.

I get that this is sort of a weird, narcissistic thing to rant about, but it's really been getting to me lately...

What the other guys said about bodybuilding stuff, but probably just arm stuff. I had similar experiences, and the difference in how people perceive me at the same low bodyweight but +2 inches to arms is weirdly different. I just do myoreps or 2-3 straight sets with the last set taken to failure 1-2x/week now.

+2 inches is an enormous difference for arms, no wonder people took notice.

Now i'm not convinced that it's only about arms. Having a big back and a big chest and people will take notice too. But I guess since most strength minded people already train their back and chest pretty hard.

[lehman906]

Why do people underestimate my power on such a frequent basis? Is it due to having a meek demeanor? Any time I talk about my physical pursuits people look at me like I'm a moron. This is in like, relevant conversation as well, so it's not like I'm just randomly flexing on people. When I've brought up that I can pull 400+ people never believe me. I work a very physical job and people always step in for me like I'm gonna hurt myself when I'm picking heavy shit up. Is it just a function of being a naturally skinny dude? Now that I've lost weight I look just like a regular skinny dude. Be careful you'll hurt yourself!!!! No one even believes that I have run a half marathon. They just look at me like I'd give up during the first mile.

I get that this is sort of a weird, narcissistic thing to rant about, but it's really been getting to me lately...

probably because you don't look like you lift

ditch the strengthmemeing programs, do a proper bodybuilding routine and bulk up to 200lbs (slowly, over several years)

He’s been given this same advice multiple times, on several different posts. I feel for the guy, and I want him to be happy, but some people don’t want to actually work on fixing the problem.

[DanCR]

What the other guys said about bodybuilding stuff, but probably just arm stuff. I had similar experiences, and the difference in how people perceive me at the same low bodyweight but +2 inches to arms is weirdly different. I just do myoreps or 2-3 straight sets with the last set taken to failure 1-2x/week now.

When you say “now,” did you gain the +2 inches doing this, or did you do something else and now you’re maintaining the size doing this?

Assuming this, also curious, what movements and how much more weight in your preferred rep ranges are you lifting now versus pre-growth explosion?

[DanCR]

Why do people underestimate my power on such a frequent basis? Is it due to having a meek demeanor? Any time I talk about my physical pursuits people look at me like I'm a moron. This is in like, relevant conversation as well, so it's not like I'm just randomly flexing on people. When I've brought up that I can pull 400+ people never believe me. I work a very physical job and people always step in for me like I'm gonna hurt myself when I'm picking heavy shit up. Is it just a function of being a naturally skinny dude? Now that I've lost weight I look just like a regular skinny dude. Be careful you'll hurt yourself!!!! No one even believes that I have run a half marathon. They just look at me like I'd give up during the first mile.

I get that this is sort of a weird, narcissistic thing to rant about, but it's really been getting to me lately...

probably because you don't look like you lift

ditch the strengthmemeing programs, do a proper bodybuilding routine and bulk up to 200lbs (slowly, over several years)

Exactly this. Several years ago I wrote out a whole proposed program for dude, among the opening remarks of which was to forget about powerlifting. Someone (not him) took issue with that, as if I’d suggested that you can’t get jacked powerlifting. Of course you can, but it’s inefficient af, especially if you weren’t born a mesomorph, and a huge distraction.

Fuck even what I wrote out. Pull any random “program” off bodybuilding.com and try to add weight to all the movements. Enjoy the mirror.