Stupid Questions Thread

[dw]

I find that standing good mornings always seem to give me a pain behind my knee after a few sessions (not during the session). It seems to be my hamstrings tendons.

Any idea what causes this?

Hamstring eccentric braking.

Can I avoid it somehow? Like ending the eccentric with more glute extension maybe?

Are you locking your knees? If so, don't. 30ish degrees of knee flexion is fine.

Looks like this was the problem. Did them in front of a mirror and was very conscientious about unlocking and experienced zero pain from them.

[dw]

I'm biomechanically challenged...

Why are leg extensions easier when you kind of sit up and open your hip angle a little, compared to just resting in the seat?

Does the wider angle set your rectus femoris at a stronger length?

[allPrimes]

Can I run a Westside-style program without access to chains and a bunch of bands?

I have a relatively small home gym and this is my first (as yet, potential) foray into Westside-style training. I have access to a squat stand, regular bar, EZ curl bar (curlz for the gurlz), utility bench, sled, and more weights than I can lift at once. I think this would be enough to get me started according to this article. I'm considering adding a Swiss/football bar for benching (and because my 47 year old shoulders don't like me when I bench too much, unless I stay on top of rotator cuff strengthening) and a plyometric box for jumping and to use in box squats (but it may not be deep enough).

[Hardartery]

Can I run a Westside-style program without access to chains and a bunch of bands?

I have a relatively small home gym and this is my first (as yet, potential) foray into Westside-style training. I have access to a squat stand, regular bar, EZ curl bar (curlz for the gurlz), utility bench, sled, and more weights than I can lift at once. I think this would be enough to get me started according to this article. I'm considering adding a Swiss/football bar for benching (and because my 47 year old shoulders don't like me when I bench too much, unless I stay on top of rotator cuff strengthening) and a plyometric box for jumping and to use in box squats (but it may not be deep enough).

Yes. Westside certainly spent plenty of years with neither of them. Bands would be the more effective and less expensive option when you get there. The basic concept is pretty straightforward, understanding speed work tends to be tougher for people. EliteFTS has stacks of videos demonstrating stuff, as opposed to just talking about it. Your programming is little more difficult without in some ways, but basic movements work just fine as the programming base. Don't let all the nonsense talk about it throw you off, it was designed and done originally with virually no use of supportive gear and it shouldn't really matter lifting natty versus gassed as it is supposed to be indiviually scaled to your performance. Video becomes your friend though, it's a lot easier to analyse your lifts and get feedback with video.

[Michiganian]

Well, it is the "Stupid Questions Thread," so...

A simple standing leg raise above vertical should not be too much of a challenge. Weighted versions can be done with a cable machine and the ankle loop. Be sure to maintain good posture and put one hand on your hip as you point your toes.

I don't understand what this means. Can somebody s'plain?

I used to do an exercise I made up (or at least I never saw anybody else do it) where, standing, back against a wall, I'd hook the toes of one foot under a kettle bell handle and lift. IIRC, I used to do that w/about ten lbs.? Maybe twelve?

[Hardartery]

Well, it is the "Stupid Questions Thread," so...

A simple standing leg raise above vertical should not be too much of a challenge. Weighted versions can be done with a cable machine and the ankle loop. Be sure to maintain good posture and put one hand on your hip as you point your toes.

I don't understand what this means. Can somebody s'plain?

I used to do an exercise I made up (or at least I never saw anybody else do it) where, standing, back against a wall, I'd hook the toes of one foot under a kettle bell handle and lift. IIRC, I used to do that w/about ten lbs.? Maybe twelve?

I think he meantabove horizontal, because above vertical is kinda impossible. If you're not a ballerina or a stripper a leg raise to vertical is unnecessary and maybe impossible. I have no idea why it might be important for someone point their toes, again unless you are a ballerina or a stripper, or keep a hand on your hip unless the hand is meant to help keep you from rotating the hips during the movement. I think he is proposing lifting a leg straight out in front of you from the floor up to horizontal. I didn't read the entire quoted post, so I have no idea why it is being suggested.
Basically what you were doing with the KB was probably the same thing unless you were bending at the knee.

[chrisd]

Well, it is the "Stupid Questions Thread," so...

A simple standing leg raise above vertical should not be too much of a challenge. Weighted versions can be done with a cable machine and the ankle loop. Be sure to maintain good posture and put one hand on your hip as you point your toes.

I don't understand what this means. Can somebody s'plain?

I used to do an exercise I made up (or at least I never saw anybody else do it) where, standing, back against a wall, I'd hook the toes of one foot under a kettle bell handle and lift. IIRC, I used to do that w/about ten lbs.? Maybe twelve?

I think he meantabove horizontal, because above vertical is kinda impossible. If you're not a ballerina or a stripper a leg raise to vertical is unnecessary and maybe impossible. I have no idea why it might be important for someone point their toes, again unless you are a ballerina or a stripper, or keep a hand on your hip unless the hand is meant to help keep you from rotating the hips during the movement. I think he is proposing lifting a leg straight out in front of you from the floor up to horizontal. I didn't read the entire quoted post, so I have no idea why it is being suggested.
Basically what you were doing with the KB was probably the same thing unless you were bending at the knee.

Yeah, whatever... up.

The cable is good because you get resistance throughout the movement. Just attaching a weight will have less resistance at the bottom of the movement, which is not terrible. It's all to do with sines and cosines and stuff.

Point toes because eit makes you push out the leg instead of cheating by flexing the joints on the way up. Hand on hip so you aren't grabbing the equipment and levering the weight into position then relaxing the body into place (like on 'pulldowns' where someone baxically weighs themselves and then sits up so they can get their elbows below their shoulders).

[Hardartery]

Well, it is the "Stupid Questions Thread," so...

A simple standing leg raise above vertical should not be too much of a challenge. Weighted versions can be done with a cable machine and the ankle loop. Be sure to maintain good posture and put one hand on your hip as you point your toes.

I don't understand what this means. Can somebody s'plain?

I used to do an exercise I made up (or at least I never saw anybody else do it) where, standing, back against a wall, I'd hook the toes of one foot under a kettle bell handle and lift. IIRC, I used to do that w/about ten lbs.? Maybe twelve?

I think he meantabove horizontal, because above vertical is kinda impossible. If you're not a ballerina or a stripper a leg raise to vertical is unnecessary and maybe impossible. I have no idea why it might be important for someone point their toes, again unless you are a ballerina or a stripper, or keep a hand on your hip unless the hand is meant to help keep you from rotating the hips during the movement. I think he is proposing lifting a leg straight out in front of you from the floor up to horizontal. I didn't read the entire quoted post, so I have no idea why it is being suggested.
Basically what you were doing with the KB was probably the same thing unless you were bending at the knee.

Yeah, whatever... up.

The cable is good because you get resistance throughout the movement. Just attaching a weight will have less resistance at the bottom of the movement, which is not terrible. It's all to do with sines and cosines and stuff.

Point toes because eit makes you push out the leg instead of cheating by flexing the joints on the way up. Hand on hip so you aren't grabbing the equipment and levering the weight into position then relaxing the body into place (like on 'pulldowns' where someone baxically weighs themselves and then sits up so they can get their elbows below their shoulders).

Makes sense, I didn't try it to know so thanks for the explanation. I was really hoping you weren't a stripper, not that there's anything wrong with that.

[DCR]

Looks like this stuff was asked a few times over at SS but Rip never responded to any of the threads. Friend wants to start his 15 year old son on the SSNLP. He wrestled this past semester and may have developed some strength there, but he’s pretty much skin and bones and the movements aren’t going to come easy at first. Bottom line, significant possibility that he won’t be able to lift the empty bar for a set of 5, on bench and almost certainly on OHP. Questions: if that’s the case, I presume the thing to do is to work up with DBs first? If so, does he begin squatting/DLing while doing so? Or is he better off avoiding the barbell for those movements too for now, and should he wait to do the NLP until he can handle the barbell for all movements such that he’s actually DTFP as written?

[5hout]

Looks like this stuff was asked a few times over at SS but Rip never responded to any of the threads. Friend wants to start his 15 year old son on the SSNLP. He wrestled this past semester and may have developed some strength there, but he’s pretty much skin and bones and the movements aren’t going to come easy at first. Bottom line, significant possibility that he won’t be able to lift the empty bar for a set of 5, on bench and almost certainly on OHP. Questions: if that’s the case, I presume the thing to do is to work up with DBs first? If so, does he begin squatting/DLing while doing so? Or is he better off avoiding the barbell for those movements too for now, and should he wait to do the NLP until he can handle the barbell for all movements such that he’s actually DTFP as written?

Why not start squatting/deadlifting ASAP?

My only concern with DBs is the flailing of a novice might make them proportionately harder than normal, but if that's what's there get at it. Could also try a shower bar (ends cut off, mine fits 1 inch plates and 1 inch bar spring clamps perfectly. I did a few wraps of gorilla tape and then pvc to make inside sleeve). Or 1 inch dowel rod with 1 inch plates on it. Or use a cable stations to do a seated OHP motion. Or do pushups/weighted pushups for bench and dumbbells' for OHP. Since kid is super skinny could also consider feet elevated pushups.

[lehman906]

Looks like this stuff was asked a few times over at SS but Rip never responded to any of the threads. Friend wants to start his 15 year old son on the SSNLP. He wrestled this past semester and may have developed some strength there, but he’s pretty much skin and bones and the movements aren’t going to come easy at first. Bottom line, significant possibility that he won’t be able to lift the empty bar for a set of 5, on bench and almost certainly on OHP. Questions: if that’s the case, I presume the thing to do is to work up with DBs first? If so, does he begin squatting/DLing while doing so? Or is he better off avoiding the barbell for those movements too for now, and should he wait to do the NLP until he can handle the barbell for all movements such that he’s actually DTFP as written?

Anything will work. If he can’t do the barbell, variations are fine. There isn’t anything magical about a barbell if you aren’t a powerlifter, so BW/goblet squats, lunges, push up variations, and a metric buttload of pull ups. He could do that with intensity slowly added for a good long while and become a monster grappler.

[augeleven]

Definitely look into what Wendler is doing with his High School program He talks about how some of his high schools kids don’t bench, just do push-ups.

[lehman906]

Looks like this stuff was asked a few times over at SS but Rip never responded to any of the threads. Friend wants to start his 15 year old son on the SSNLP. He wrestled this past semester and may have developed some strength there, but he’s pretty much skin and bones and the movements aren’t going to come easy at first. Bottom line, significant possibility that he won’t be able to lift the empty bar for a set of 5, on bench and almost certainly on OHP. Questions: if that’s the case, I presume the thing to do is to work up with DBs first? If so, does he begin squatting/DLing while doing so? Or is he better off avoiding the barbell for those movements too for now, and should he wait to do the NLP until he can handle the barbell for all movements such that he’s actually DTFP as written?

Why not start squatting/deadlifting ASAP?

My only concern with DBs is the flailing of a novice might make them proportionately harder than normal, but if that's what's there get at it. Could also try a shower bar (ends cut off, mine fits 1 inch plates and 1 inch bar spring clamps perfectly. I did a few wraps of gorilla tape and then pvc to make inside sleeve). Or 1 inch dowel rod with 1 inch plates on it. Or use a cable stations to do a seated OHP motion. Or do pushups/weighted pushups for bench and dumbbells' for OHP. Since kid is super skinny could also consider feet elevated pushups.

Also, Zach Evan-Esh works with a ton of wrestlers.

[Philbert]

Looks like this stuff was asked a few times over at SS but Rip never responded to any of the threads. Friend wants to start his 15 year old son on the SSNLP. He wrestled this past semester and may have developed some strength there, but he’s pretty much skin and bones and the movements aren’t going to come easy at first. Bottom line, significant possibility that he won’t be able to lift the empty bar for a set of 5, on bench and almost certainly on OHP. Questions: if that’s the case, I presume the thing to do is to work up with DBs first? If so, does he begin squatting/DLing while doing so? Or is he better off avoiding the barbell for those movements too for now, and should he wait to do the NLP until he can handle the barbell for all movements such that he’s actually DTFP as written?

He should start BB squats and DLs when he wants to regardless of what he is doing for upper body. Depending on how weak and how skinny he is, there are many options for upper body. Pushups can be progressed from wall push to pusshups from knees to pushups to feet elevated pushups. Alternatively, a serviceable baby bar for Olympic plates can be made with 3/4 steel pipe, 2" wooden dowel rod, and a drill.

[houzi]

Definitely look into what Wendler is doing with his High School program He talks about how some of his high schools kids don’t bench, just do push-ups.

I would reccomend this too. I believe there is a presentation by Wendler on the EliteFTS Youtube channel. I believe he details how the kids have to reach X amount of push ups and goblet squats (though i might be remembering wrong) before they are allowed to start using barbell movements. The idea was along the lines of: 1. teaches them to train hard towards a goal (using a barbell) 2. Gets them to do a ton of reps within a plane of movement and start growing muscle there and 3. ensures that when given a barbell to use they are in theory safer having been a bit more prepared.

[Hardartery]

Looks like this stuff was asked a few times over at SS but Rip never responded to any of the threads. Friend wants to start his 15 year old son on the SSNLP. He wrestled this past semester and may have developed some strength there, but he’s pretty much skin and bones and the movements aren’t going to come easy at first. Bottom line, significant possibility that he won’t be able to lift the empty bar for a set of 5, on bench and almost certainly on OHP. Questions: if that’s the case, I presume the thing to do is to work up with DBs first? If so, does he begin squatting/DLing while doing so? Or is he better off avoiding the barbell for those movements too for now, and should he wait to do the NLP until he can handle the barbell for all movements such that he’s actually DTFP as written?

As several guys have mentioned, this is basically what Wendler programs and his more recent info will be right in line with it. What he does is working for a lot of kids, so it certainly is worth a shot. Alternatively, he doesn't have to use a 1" bar, a piece of 2" pipe will work and probably be more comfortable and easier to learn with for him. It also weighs a lot less than 45 lbs. 2" rigid conduit is a little small (Collars won't work) but cheap and easy to get him started.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

@DCR First thing I'd try to tell your friend that SS is not very good for the subject at hand (in general, and also in the particular case of a 15 year old with zero muscle, since SS is essentially a program for off season football players, who are the polar opposite of a 15 year old with no muscle on his frame). As others have mentioned Wendler stuff is good, and in particular I like his "5/3/1 for beginners" program. It teaches beginners all the basics of sound programming: a few compound progressed slowly with enough volume while avoiding failure, enough volume on accessory exercises (dips, chins, lunges, DB presses, DB rows etc) to grow muscle without killing yourself and some conditioning to make sure you're in shape enough to actually train. SS will get you to put weight on the bar but it sets you up for failure once you stall HARD (which you will).

If you're having problems with the empty bar being too heavy why not use those curl bars that weight 20 lbs ?

Finally, if the kid is literally skin and bones and completely new to training with weights what about some basic bodyweight training to build him up a bit (pushups, dips, chins, lunges, leg raises, etc) ? Dave Tate mentioned that beginners should be able to knock out a few good sets of pushups before being allowed to bench and I think it makes sense.

[bobmen10000]

I have been watching wrestling documentaries lately and the shit they did to the newbies in the 1960s and 70s (much of which bordered on actual torture) in terms of conditioning involved tons of bodyweight squats, pushups variations and other bodyweight exercises - and a ton of running in inhospitable temperatures, like winters in Minnesota or midday during the summer in Florida. Point is: they were very strong, and a fairly jacked, with no equipment whatsoever*

*steroids also had an influence but not as much on those 60s and 70s guys, especially starting out, bodybuilders were no transitioning over as much as they did in the 1980s to wrestling promotions.

As mentioned above, Wendler seems to have his kids start and master bodyweight movements before progressing to barbell work. Building profieceny in the movement and endurance seem to be key to him.

[augeleven]

Which commercial gym machines to not sleep on?
I find myself lifting at the YMCA semi regularly on squat and press days. After I’m done with my main movements, I tend to do what I do at home for accessories, but they have all these cool toys distractions machines that I don’t really use.
Help me up my silly bullshittery game.

[dw]

Which commercial gym machines to not sleep on?
I find myself lifting at the YMCA semi regularly on squat and press days. After I’m done with my main movements, I tend to do what I do at home for accessories, but they have all these cool toys distractions machines that I don’t really use.
Help me up my silly bullshittery game.

Really depends on what muscles you want to grow.

Not knowing anything about your programming you could try switching to strength training for squats (so low RPE with a focus on explosiveness) and then do higher RPE volume on leg extensions or maybe the hack squat machine.

This is kind of silly to suggest in a vacuum but I think for a lot of us it's more effective than just high RPE squats.