Dogs

[BenM]

There seems to be a bit of a movement away from it now amongst some vets, especially early in the dog's life. There is some evidence out there that testosterone can be protective against some diseases and conditions like hip dysplasia.

Last I heard, there is no movement away from it amongst vets at large, but I believe they are suggesting waiting, like, a month or something.
Also not sure how much of the recommendation is actually evidence based, TBF.

Well whether there's a 'movement' or not I probably wouldn't know, to be fair, since I'm not a vet and don't really have my finger on the pulse.... so I should take back what I said and rephrase, there are certainly some vets advocating against it, and there does appear to be some evidence for waiting, or not neutering at all - with male dogs, at least.

A couple of studies for examples, one on german shepherds - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 02/vms3.34 and one on golden retrievers (which is specifically relevant to me since that's what we have) - https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0055937

Here's an editorial from a vet which breaks down the GR study above - https://www.gundogmag.com/editorial/con ... mma/176220

These are the sorts of things I was talking about....

Our breeder reckons it won't change their behaviour much anyway.

Also, from what I've heard, listening to a breeder on the topic is kind of like listening to a chiropractor about diet. They might know what they are talking about, but their profession doesn't really play directly into it.

You don't think a breeder would have some reasonable anecdotal experience after many years raising litters of dogs, staying in touch with the owners of their progeny, and dealing with vets far more than the average pet owner?

I don't think your anecdote really holds true. They're not vets, sure, and they're not necessarily going to be following 'the science' (although some may well do) but it's far more interrelated than chiros and diet.

[Inmyelement]

We are in the market for a dog and have talked to several breeders in the past few months. After this I feel that breeders may be one of the worst places to get info on any dog. Obviously some are going to be better than others, but most have been worse than an aggressive used car salesman.

[BenM]

We are in the market for a dog and have talked to several breeders in the past few months. After this I feel that breeders may be one of the worst places to get info on any dog. Obviously some are going to be better than others, but most have been worse than an aggressive used car salesman.

There's breeders and there's 'breeders'.

Don't know what it's like in the states but we have issues with puppy farms here, and even some of the supposed professional breeders are more interested in the commercial aspect than actually the welfare of their animals.

We did our research before we bought this dog, and IMO the one I'm referring to above is definitely one of the good ones. Cares very deeply about her dogs and what happens to them, and is very choosy about putting them in good homes. Has a very, very long waiting list....

[JonA]

A couple of studies for examples, one on german shepherds - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 02/vms3.34 and one on golden retrievers (which is specifically relevant to me since that's what we have) - https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0055937

My dad was a vet, and he always, laughing the entire time, told a story about the terminal velocity of cats falling from buildings. Supposedly there was this study that determined, given the terminal velocity of a cat, that a fall greater than a certain height was more survivable for the cat, as the cat had enough time to twist around and land on its feet. The study concluded this from the fact that clinic reported injuries for falling cats sharply tapered off after a certain height.

Maybe it was true, maybe not. I don't know. But that second article is doing something very similar: sampling records from a hospital. Healthy dogs are probably not going to be receiving treatment at University teaching hospital (neither are dead cats), so your population statistics are already skewed.

[mbasic]

I wonder how much of it too (dogs with acl tears, hip dysplasia, health problems) is from bad diet, lack of exercise, etc.... just like their human masters.

[mbasic]

We are in the market for a dog and have talked to several breeders in the past few months. After this I feel that breeders may be one of the worst places to get info on any dog. Obviously some are going to be better than others, but most have been worse than an aggressive used car salesman.

Depends on the breeder.
If you get the used car salesman vibe, run for the hills of course.

With our "breeder", it was the opposite. I can't say enough.
It was as if YOU were the one who was getting interviewed to see if you were a worthy owner for the breeder's dog.
People were flying in from other states to view puppies/litters ....

Pedigree charts, and all that shit. Champions in blood line.
Even if I didn't hunt, I would still get a dog from this guy.

You could return the dog, no questions asked .... at any time.....even several years down the road.
(say: divorce, human has medical problems, you move out of country, you think its a shitty dog, etc)

They do various X-rays, bloodwork, medical tests and shit on the breeding stock after they're grown a bit to see if there are any negative traits...before they start breeding. Do follow ups on all their dogs out there.
(These types of "breeders" might know more than vets actually.....)

And if by chance you did get a dog that had some weird medical problem down the road, he would take it back and replace and/or refund.
He does that because that is sure fire way to know what "delayed" traits might be in that particular line .... and because he loves the dogs....and because he wants to have a good reputation of course....
He takes the dog back, neuters it if it isn't, and that dog lives out its life happily at the compound running around with the rest of the dogs.

I thought at first all that was bullshit.
Posts a few of the those "take-back" stories on facebook.....he's for real.
Many times he can "re-family" the dog.

The guy converted a old school bus into a dog-hauler-kennel-thing of sorts....20+ dog capacity.
During the summer, travels to cooler climates with the dogs, lets the run around in the high forests, etc

He might be somewhat crazy.

All that said, his going price was the same as the other breeders in the market from what I remember.
There was just a little back log to get a puppy.

Knowing what I know now, I would've paid 2-4 times the cost for that same dog we got if I had to.
(i.e. the guy should really charge more)

[Mattjd]

Im looking to buy a female blue Merle aussie, I'd like to find a breeder like him. How do u search for good ones?

[MPhelps]

But no 4 legged animal will ever cross the threshold to my home.

I mean .... as long as you have a nice hospitable shelter/dog/kennel outside-thing out back for them .... that's fine I guess.
(not too hot or cold; clean; shelter; food; room to run ...)
They don't HAVE TO come into the inside of your house.

And then there this:
(time stamped at 3:00)


if you make it thru all of the "kissing", the howling at 7:00 is rather cute as well....

Yeah fuck this. Another reason they should all 1000% be on a leash. I don't need some fucking wannabe alpha male dog get in my shit because I don't treat it with respect. I'll take passive aggressive cats any day.

My first experience with a dog was my neighbor's large golden retriever who would come at you at a full sprint just to say hi or whatever bullshit he was doing. Well that's kind of terrifying to a 4 year old.

Plus I like to leave the house and not have to come back and deal with a needy animal. Or have to have someone watch it or put it a kennel when I'm not around. You can't take them deer hunting, so I have no need for a hunting dog. Plus I hate the smell and the slobber.

Ok, I just don't really like dogs much. My mom had a husky, golden, collie type mix that was cool as hell, but like I said earlier, mutts are a dying breed.

[Mattjd]

Didn't the guy that write all the shit on alphas in the 70s go on later to say it's bullshit

[Hanley]

if you make it thru all of the "kissing", the howling at 7:00 is rather cute as well....

I'm finding myself oddly attracted to this woman.

[mgil]

if you make it thru all of the "kissing", the howling at 7:00 is rather cute as well....

I'm finding myself oddly attracted to this woman.

She’s hot. Possibly batshit crazy, but hot.

[BenM]

Yeah fuck this. Another reason they should all 1000% be on a leash. I don't need some fucking wannabe alpha male dog get in my shit because I don't treat it with respect. I'll take passive aggressive cats any day.

My first experience with a dog was my neighbor's large golden retriever who would come at you at a full sprint just to say hi or whatever bullshit he was doing. Well that's kind of terrifying to a 4 year old.

Plus I like to leave the house and not have to come back and deal with a needy animal. Or have to have someone watch it or put it a kennel when I'm not around. You can't take them deer hunting, so I have no need for a hunting dog. Plus I hate the smell and the slobber.

Ok, I just don't really like dogs much. My mom had a husky, golden, collie type mix that was cool as hell, but like I said earlier, mutts are a dying breed.

On a leash, or 'under effective control'.

I love my dog and always had them growing up, I'd probably call myself a dog lover and a cat tolerator. But there are a lot of jerkoff dog owners out there... we walk our dog by the river all the time and there are a LOT of dog owners who'll just let theirs run around off lead and come up and bother us, leave their shit on the ground for us to tread in, and just generally cause hassles for everyone else. It's frustrating.

We're trying really hard to teach our pup not to jump up on people at the moment. He's learning, but it's difficult at times when non family members allow it and think it's adorable. We have to train them as well.

[JohnHelton]

@mbasic, you have had the same type of experience I have had with breeders. They are crazy about their animals. That said I have always bought less popular breeds. That increases the crazy. My breeders have always been big into showing the dogs as well. More crazy stuff.

[Cody]

You can't take them deer hunting, so I have no need for a hunting dog.

Yes you can.

[Hanley]

Yes you can.

You can use them for mountain lions, bob cats and for tracking wounded game in your new home of Montana.

[Cody]

Yes you can.

You can use them for mountain lions, bob cats and for tracking wounded game in your new home of Montana.

Dog hunting mountain lions sounds insane! I'm in.

[MPhelps]

Didn't the guy that write all the shit on alphas in the 70s go on later to say it's bullshit

I think it had more to do with debunking the status of the alpha. I think it had something to do with it wasn't actually a great spot to be in and that it wasn't the leader. It was just the dumbest most aggressive male and female. The leader was near the back of the pack observing.

[MPhelps]

You can't take them deer hunting, so I have no need for a hunting dog.

Yes you can.

Yeah, not in NY. I'm not one of those hunters that travels out of state to hunt..Especially for white tails. I'd rather still hunt and track them in the snow where I live. I also am not very successful, but that's the way I like to do it.

[mbasic]

Yes you can.

You can use them for mountain lions, bob cats and for tracking wounded game in your new home of Montana.

Dog hunting mountain lions sounds insane! I'm in.

The experiences I've heard about. Its seems rather lame, and not very sporting.
Its weird too, because I am really into dogs, and this hunt is all about the dogs really.

Pack of blood hounds? with radio collars wander around for days and days.
Many times, the dogs' handler will switch off with different people during the course of all this (see: "days").
....the actual "hunter" (guy with the tag) may or may not be with the group....(depending on State, laws, ethics of hunter, etc)
Finally, the dogs run up the cat into a tree, the tag holder will shoot the cat out of a tree with a large pistol or rifle.

Seems lame to be honest.
It all depends and who and how the hunt is being run.
Not a fan of any kind of driven hunt either.

I have a soft spot for the predators (wolves, coyotes, bears, mountain lions, etc),
but I whole heartily know they have to managed and at times culled, thinned, etc.

But I think it should be done ... somehow ... with a certain amount of respect and/or in a indifference-utility kind of way.
Just shoot them and be done with it.

---------------------------------

We found a hound dog(?) once that was used for a mountain lion hunt.
Had a of radio collar (w/ a phone number); we actually thought is was a lost bird-dog before the owner finally called us back and
told us what was going on.
Was completed emaciated.
It had been lost of a week, and we found it 90 miles from where they had lost track of it.
The whole pack had been scattered over southern Arizona.

This was about 20 years ago, so I'm sure the tech has become much better, and maybe that doesn't happen so much anymore.

[LexAnderson]

Read Where the Red Fern Grows as a child, cried like a baby.