When you don’t understand your own model

[mgil]

This video deserves its own thread, simply because it is a clear case of contradiction.

Recall the SS lift selection criteria

-Most weight
-Most muscle mass
-Longest range of motion

Now let’s compare a standard/full clean, referred to as a squat clean in the video, to a power clean. For the clarity of exposition, assume the lifter is held constant and that they are equally proficient at both movements.

It is exceeding clear that the total displacement of the barbell between both movements is identical. They both start from the floor and end with the barbell in the front rack on the anterior deltoids, hands, and possibly collarbone. Seeing as how the trained lifter will lift more in a standard clean, it’s obvious that the power clean is inferior.

If one examines only the pull from the floor to where triple extension initiates, the standard clean is still initiating from the same point as a power clean, and thus the heavier barbell determines that the standard clean is more effective.

Turning to the catch of the barbell after triple extension, the standard clean catches the barbell much lower than the power clean. This may seem to imply that the standard clean is less useful under the criteria, but it must be noted that the triple extension is a ballistic phase initiated from an explosive motion. With that being noted, simply looking at the catch and squat phase of the clean, it is immediately clear that the power clean has less range of motion. Combining that with the notion that the power clean is loaded more lightly, it is shown that it is exceedingly less effective under the SS criteria. It involves both less weight on the barbell and less range of motion.

It would appear that the actual motivation for using the power clean is that it is simpler to instruct than a full clean. A full clean requires a competent front squat, a movement that is ignored under the basic SS mode. It also requires a more skill in executing the triple extension and getting under for a lower catch point.

From the above, the power clean fails the criteria Rip has put forward. If what appears to be a fourth criterion, “ease of coaching and execution” is applied, then the low bar back squat begins to stand on shaky ground, as Rip has stated that high bar squats are much easier to execute. However, high bar squats cover the same range of motion as low bar (possibly more if one considers how erect a person can stand with the change in center of mass), is only at a slight deficit with regards to loading, and involves effectively the same musculature.

[MPhelps]

I'd even say that the high bar squat has a greater ROM because of the lifters ability to go was to grass. Also the full clean has a longer ROM in the third pull where the lifter pulls themselves under the bar, and the front squat portion of the lift where the lifter stands up. The only thing a power clean has on a full clean is the second pull where the lifter pulls the bar into the higher catching position.

You may have already said those things in a much better way.

[chrisd]

From a stupid person's perspective.

I can high pull more than I can clean or power clean. If I use a height gauge like in a Kono pull, I must surely be moving more mass over the same range of motion.

[damufunman]

From a stupid person's perspective.

I can high pull more than I can clean or power clean. If I use a height gauge like in a Kono pull, I must surely be moving more mass over the same range of motion.

Interesting thought, and I think @ape288 might be a good one to weigh in here.

I suspect SS's argument for a high pull is that there's no objective way to determine if you made the lift, but then again there's a similar issue with Power or naw. At which point you might as well just Clean it with a squat. But the height marker on the high pull is definitely a good gauge.

[mgil]

From a stupid person's perspective.

I can high pull more than I can clean or power clean. If I use a height gauge like in a Kono pull, I must surely be moving more mass over the same range of motion.

Interesting thought, and I think ape288 might be a good one to weigh in here.

I suspect SS's argument for a high pull is that there's no objective way to determine if you made the lift, but then again there's a similar issue with Power or naw. At which point you might as well just Clean it with a squat. But the height marker on the high pull is definitely a good gauge.

I’d agree that the objectivity of a knowing when a high pull is useful relative to a person’s own stature and segment length is tricky.

I’m still at odds as to why the power clean exists in a novice program. It’s way below useful deadlift stimulus although it does reinforce position. But you’re not training much really once the skill is learned. Furthermore, most of the people trying to progressively overload the PC end up with the hallmark starfish catch which always looks cool.

Bill Starr was a smart dude and probably knew that it was easy to identify fast & strong types with the power clean. If they can pick it up quickly, then you know they have good proprioception. For a guy running through groups of dudes for football season, there’s a good chance the power clean was as much a filter of phenotypes as it was a vehicle for training strength.

[MPhelps]

I think it makes him feel superior to others by including them. I still do them for some reason. I think they're funnish and make training more interesting. Other than that, I have no idea If they help anything with regards to athleticism for me

[MPhelps]

From a stupid person's perspective.

I can high pull more than I can clean or power clean. If I use a height gauge like in a Kono pull, I must surely be moving more mass over the same range of motion.

I could snatch high pull to my collarbone way more than I could full snatch. I could also power snatch and split snatch more than I could full snatch. My muscle snatch was 95% of my best split snatch.

I don't really think pulls did a thing for me. I also felt like having to catch the high pull at my waist hurt my low back more than completing the lift would. Most real lifters do pulls with only 100-105% of their max though, which wouldn't do shit for me since my strength was way ahead of my classic lifts.

I don't really have a point here. I probably would've done better just not getting into weightlifting at all in the first place. Sarcasm on: I can blame rip for that too!!!

[izzynarvaez]

The only real selection criteria in the SS Model is whatever Rip fancies and that’s usually, primarily, old-timey nostalgia.

TnG deadlifts are another clear cut example. More weight over the same RoM... but lifters will slam the weight on the floor! So coach them not to just like a bench press? But the first rep will be way harder and mess up progression! So teach them to walk out the bar just like in an RDL? But that’s not safe! Why is it safe in the squat? Doesn’t it demonstrate “athleticism” to walk the bar out?

Dips use more weight than bench press over a fairly similar RoM (if you include body weight), use WAY more muscle mass due to full body stabilization, don’t pin the scapulas in place, don’t require a spotter, are incrementally loadable and not that big of a pain to setup with a loading pin (although I admit the equipment to make proper dips work isn’t as widely available and novice fat people can’t do dips usually).

There isn’t any actual rhyme or reason to any of it. It is a bunch of backward rationalization and nothing more.

[mbasic]

I suspect SS's argument for a high pull is that there's no objective way to determine if you made the lift, but then again there's a similar issue with Power or naw. At which point you might as well just Clean it with a squat. But the height marker on the high pull is definitely a good gauge.

The height on which one makes-a-rep on a power clean varies with load, and can vary from rep to rep in the same set.
Its retarded not to use them because you subjectively gauge a made rep.

Clean pulls and snatch high pulls are beautiful things that are super easy to teach and execute and have low(er) risk of injury.

[Testiclaw]

From a stupid person's perspective.

I can high pull more than I can clean or power clean. If I use a height gauge like in a Kono pull, I must surely be moving more mass over the same range of motion.

I could snatch high pull to my collarbone way more than I could full snatch. I could also power snatch and split snatch more than I could full snatch. My muscle snatch was 95% of my best split snatch.

I don't really think pulls did a thing for me. I also felt like having to catch the high pull at my waist hurt my low back more than completing the lift would. Most real lifters do pulls with only 100-105% of their max though, which wouldn't do shit for me since my strength was way ahead of my classic lifts.

I don't really have a point here. I probably would've done better just not getting into weightlifting at all in the first place. Sarcasm on: I can blame rip for that too!!!

Wait..how much weight are we talking about, here?

What was your muscle snatch compared to your snatch?

[MPhelps]

@Testiclaw
I've muscle snatched around 72kg and my best ever snatch in the split method was 79kg. Power snatch was 76kg and full regular old snatch was 75kg. I could snatch high pull 89kg to my collarbone. OHS 82kg. Snatch deadlift 130kg. So you can imagine programmed pulls at 90%x3 didn't really do much for me.



I'm using kilos because it's less embarrassing to admit these numbers.

[ape288]

From a stupid person's perspective.

I can high pull more than I can clean or power clean. If I use a height gauge like in a Kono pull, I must surely be moving more mass over the same range of motion.

Interesting thought, and I think @ape288 might be a good one to weigh in here.

I suspect SS's argument for a high pull is that there's no objective way to determine if you made the lift, but then again there's a similar issue with Power or naw. At which point you might as well just Clean it with a squat. But the height marker on the high pull is definitely a good gauge.

Well, of course you can high pull more than you can clean! The way I like to look at it is that the difference between a weight you can truly high pull vs. a weight you can clean/snatch is an indicator of how skilled/unskilled you are at the lifts vs. how strong and powerful you are. I once read something along the lines of "a lot of guys can snatch grip high pull 200kg (read: a lot of guys are STRONG ENOUGH to snatch 200kg), but not a lot of guys can actually snatch 200kg.

So us unskilled mongrels are going to have a large discrepancy between what we high pull and what we can actually catch overhead or rack onto the shoulders because we are strong, but we are unskilled. A guy like Klokov who's been doing this shit since he was 1.5 years old probably won't have a very large discrepancy because he is both unbelievably strong AND unbelievably skilled at the lifts.

So all that said, as a guy who is not very skilled at the act of Olympic lifting, but who understands their benefits as they pertain to power enhancement and athleticism, I can use the high pull to my advantage since it's a low skilled movement that still provides similar benefits. It allows me to overload the weight and the volume, for what is arguably a greater overall training effect. I actually wrote an article about it if you're interested: A Case For the Snatch Grip High Pull (https://www.enkirielitefitness.com/articles/highpull)

[damufunman]

From a stupid person's perspective.

I can high pull more than I can clean or power clean. If I use a height gauge like in a Kono pull, I must surely be moving more mass over the same range of motion.

Interesting thought, and I think @ape288 might be a good one to weigh in here.

I suspect SS's argument for a high pull is that there's no objective way to determine if you made the lift, but then again there's a similar issue with Power or naw. At which point you might as well just Clean it with a squat. But the height marker on the high pull is definitely a good gauge.

Well, of course you can high pull more than you can clean! The way I like to look at it is that the difference between a weight you can truly high pull vs. a weight you can clean/snatch is an indicator of how skilled/unskilled you are at the lifts vs. how strong and powerful you are. I once read something along the lines of "a lot of guys can snatch grip high pull 200kg (read: a lot of guys are STRONG ENOUGH to snatch 200kg), but not a lot of guys can actually snatch 200kg.

So us unskilled mongrels are going to have a large discrepancy between what we high pull and what we can actually catch overhead or rack onto the shoulders because we are strong, but we are unskilled. A guy like Klokov who's been doing this shit since he was 1.5 years old probably won't have a very large discrepancy because he is both unbelievably strong AND unbelievably skilled at the lifts.

So all that said, as a guy who is not very skilled at the act of Olympic lifting, but who understands their benefits as they pertain to power enhancement and athleticism, I can use the high pull to my advantage since it's a low skilled movement that still provides similar benefits. It allows me to overload the weight and the volume, for what is arguably a greater overall training effect. I actually wrote an article about it if you're interested: A Case For the Snatch Grip High Pull (https://www.enkirielitefitness.com/articles/highpull)

That article was the reason you came to mind.

[ape288]

From a stupid person's perspective.

I can high pull more than I can clean or power clean. If I use a height gauge like in a Kono pull, I must surely be moving more mass over the same range of motion.

Interesting thought, and I think @ape288 might be a good one to weigh in here.

I suspect SS's argument for a high pull is that there's no objective way to determine if you made the lift, but then again there's a similar issue with Power or naw. At which point you might as well just Clean it with a squat. But the height marker on the high pull is definitely a good gauge.

Well, of course you can high pull more than you can clean! The way I like to look at it is that the difference between a weight you can truly high pull vs. a weight you can clean/snatch is an indicator of how skilled/unskilled you are at the lifts vs. how strong and powerful you are. I once read something along the lines of "a lot of guys can snatch grip high pull 200kg (read: a lot of guys are STRONG ENOUGH to snatch 200kg), but not a lot of guys can actually snatch 200kg.

So us unskilled mongrels are going to have a large discrepancy between what we high pull and what we can actually catch overhead or rack onto the shoulders because we are strong, but we are unskilled. A guy like Klokov who's been doing this shit since he was 1.5 years old probably won't have a very large discrepancy because he is both unbelievably strong AND unbelievably skilled at the lifts.

So all that said, as a guy who is not very skilled at the act of Olympic lifting, but who understands their benefits as they pertain to power enhancement and athleticism, I can use the high pull to my advantage since it's a low skilled movement that still provides similar benefits. It allows me to overload the weight and the volume, for what is arguably a greater overall training effect. I actually wrote an article about it if you're interested: A Case For the Snatch Grip High Pull (https://www.enkirielitefitness.com/articles/highpull)

That article was the reason you came to mind.

I probo should've quoted the other guy but I'm a noob.

[Hanley]

It is a bunch of backward rationalization

yep

[mgil]

It is a bunch of backward rationalization

yep

And what is easy to coach and sell to n00bs.

[MPhelps]

It is a bunch of backward rationalization

yep

And what is easy to coach and sell to n00bs.

And what powerlifters do.



Except it's not powerlifting

[coldfire]

Dips use more weight than bench press over a fairly similar RoM.

I don't think so. The ROM for dips is pretty much the length of the humerus, which is significantly less than the ROM for an average bench press.

[PathThinker]

I forgot about the TnG deadlifts.