That’s was no suicide...

[Savs]

Would you find it surprising if Trump has knowingly paid for sex with young women under the age of 18?

Umm, no. I don't even find it surprising that a woman claimed he and Epstein raped her when she was 13 years old. I also don't find it surprising that he would walk into the dressing room of a teen (15 and 16 year olds) beauty pageant. What I do find surprising is the number of people, some of whom are here now reading this, who voted for him.

[aurelius]

For those on the conspiratorial front, if he had dirt on the rich and powerful, why wait until after he was arrested, in jail, and (kinda) protected? Wouldn't it have been easier and more prudent to take care of things when he was on luxurious house arrest in the past or in a foreign country or something?

The AG in New York used new allegations and a little used loophole in the agreement Epstein made with the AG in Florida in 2008 to bring charges against Epstein in 2019.

All power is local. Maybe Epstein fell out with the wrong circle. Maybe this was a power play by power brokers in the Northeast against people Epstein could hurt. Maybe an AG had new information on Epstein, reviewed the old case, and decided to do the right thing.

What I find interesting is the Clinton conspiracy. Yes, Bill Clinton has a history of sexual assault that was covered up. But Clinton has not been in power for 20 years. Obama and the Clinton's had a tenuous relationship at best. Epstein was given a VERY lenient plea bargain under the Bush administration. The AG that brokered that bargain was made the Secretary of Labor under the Trump administration. Epstein was left unsupervised and committed suicide under the Trump Administration. It would seem the conspiracy should point in a different direction...

[aurelius]

What I do find surprising is the number of people, some of whom are here now reading this, who voted for him.

I don't find that surprising at all. They don't really care. Most people really don't care about Epstein either. Other than it would embarrass a lot of wealthy and powerful people, most people don't care about what Epstein did either. Sex trafficking in the US is estimated to make between $2.5 billion and $10 billion. The NBA made $7.4 billion in 2017. Most people don't care. Not really. Or we wouldn't spend our money on it and instead do something about it.

In the end, after all of the hand wringing and moral superiority; we are not so evolved as we like to think ourselves. The US is far more misogynist and racist than we care to recognize.

Another relevant example: Bill Clinton sexually assaulted multiple women. And used his position of influence to avoid prosecution. Hilary Clinton went after these women and helped cover up the incidents. Yet somehow the Clintons are seen as the First Family of Liberal America.

[Savs]

In the end, after all of the hand wringing and moral superiority; we are not so evolved as we like to think ourselves. The US is far more misogynist and racist than we care to recognize.

Oh, I recognize it and I care. I'm no angel, but it makes me sick to think Trump is president. I'll let it go here, because this shouldn't be a politics thread. Sorry for the derail.

[quark]

An autopsy found that financier Jeffrey Epstein suffered multiple breaks in his neck bones, according to two people familiar with the findings, deepening the mystery about the circumstances around his death.

Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

[KOTJ]

Honestly, I'd just swap them for Pendlay rows.

[KOTJ]

Also, "the simplest explanation" mantra doesn't apply well to humans, because we're balls crazy.

Probably easier to find more irrational stories of humans, than rational tales.

[Bcharles123]

The AG in New York used new allegations and a little used loophole in the agreement Epstein made with the AG in Florida in 2008 to bring charges against Epstein in 2019.

(tried post earlier)

Yes to your post.

NY has a law (rule) that you can bring up allegations past the statute of limitations. A dubious proposition for the right reasons. What I find surprising is how many people, including here, support the idea of guilty until proven innocent. It seems to be building momentum.

[aurelius]

NY has a law (rule) that you can bring up allegations past the statute of limitations. A dubious proposition for the right reasons. What I find surprising is how many people, including here, support the idea of guilty until proven innocent. It seems to be building momentum.

My understanding is there is not a statute of limitations on violent/heinous crimes such as rape and/or sex trafficking in Federal law and in most States. Probably need to look that up. This is a big deal in the military court system by the way right now.

The loophole I was referring to involved the plea bargain Epstein reached with the Florida office of the DoJ (Acosta). It exempted Epstein from prosecution for those crimes from the Florida office. Not the New York one. The specificity in the agreement is the loophole the New York office used. They could bring charges because they were a party to nor mentioned in the plea agreement. And Epstein plead guilty to State offenses, not federal...leaving the door open for prosecution by the New York DoJ for Federal crimes. Or some such. I might not be retelling the legal wrangling I had read with 100% accuracy.

Certainly there needs to be consideration given allegations before publicly lynching someone, BUT...

Epstein was a sex trafficker that was allowed to plead guilty to two felony prostitution charges, register as a sex offender, and pay restitution to three dozen victims identified by the FBI. in 2008. He served 18 months in county jail. I don't believe your guilty until proven innocent thought applies in his case. Or are you referring to the conspiracy theories surrounding Epstein?

[Bcharles123]

I don't believe your guilty until proven innocent thought applies in his case. Or are you referring to the conspiracy theories surrounding Epstein?

No. I'm referring to the new allegations. There is apparently a new law in NY that goes beyond the statutes of limitations.(https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/14/opin ... araoz.html).

While I can confidently say he is probably guilty I can't say I know he is. This dilemma has been around since the beginning of time. Sometimes handled very poorly by zealots as well as abused by the guilty. Im just sensing a potentially dangerous digression.

[aurelius]

No. I'm referring to the new allegations. There is apparently a new law in NY that goes beyond the statutes of limitations.(https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/14/opin ... araoz.html).

While I can confidently say he is probably guilty I can't say I know he is. This dilemma has been around since the beginning of time. Sometimes handled very poorly by zealots as well as abused by the guilty. Im just sensing a potentially dangerous digression.

You are referring to New York's recent law regarding civil lawsuits. If we recognize that these crimes should not have a statute of limitations in criminal cases, why is this a cause of concern to you in civil cases?

The ability for social media to widely and rapidly spread accusations is the compounding factor. Likely the digression you refer to. I think it can be great to have a venue that can bypass many of the social institutions that have historically worked to protect the accused rather than the victim in cases such as sexual assault. Yet, we have already seen overreach on the part of the #metoo movement. I for one enjoy the 'outing' of racists on social media. People (mostly white males) are worried about this...I'm kind of concerned about the people that are worried they could be outed on social media...like what the fuck are you doing that this concerns you? How about don't be a creep and don't be a racist and you'll do just fine.

Innocent until proven guilty is only a guarantee from conviction without due process. Not the societal consequences of being an asshole. Epstein would have had his day in court. He decided to forgo that right.

[neandrewthal]

All this shit with Corey Feldmen. Man I can't help it. Its sound like a just conspiracy but I really reeeally think there is like some crazy pedophilia, sex thing going on with the social elite in America.

Maybe not pedophilia but Feldman himself may or may not be running some very strange harem under the guise of "mentoring" young women who are desperate to break into show business.

[Bcharles123]

You are referring to New York's recent law regarding civil lawsuits. If we recognize that these crimes should not have a statute of limitations in criminal cases, why is this a cause of concern to you in civil cases?

Innocent until proven guilty is only a guarantee from conviction without due process. Not the societal consequences of being an asshole. Epstein would have had his day in court. He decided to forgo that right.

The new law also increases the statute of limitation for criminal prosecution. I don't have any specific concerns, especially w.r.t. Epstein and his accomplices. I have general concerns about the trend that accusations of sexual assault, racism, and police injustice are being treated as defacto true because they are so heinous. It's just too easy in this era to make something up (or embellish) and get it out there. In the old days you could accuse your neighbor of being a witch, but it took a few weeks before the farmer in the next town could consider it. Now it's the speed of light and global. It's a different evil but it's still evil. Maybe I'm misreading this.

[aurelius]

I have general concerns about the trend that accusations of sexual assault, racism, and police injustice are being treated as defacto true because they are so heinous. It's just too easy in this era to make something up (or embellish) and get it out there. In the old days you could accuse your neighbor of being a witch, but it took a few weeks before the farmer in the next town could consider it. Now it's the speed of light and global. It's a different evil but it's still evil. Maybe I'm misreading this.

I think you are focusing on something that is not really a problem. Everything I have read regarding false allegations states they are very rare. Certainly social media giving anyone the ability to share a message has its downsides. Just look at the radicalization occurring globally.

[hsilman]

You are referring to New York's recent law regarding civil lawsuits. If we recognize that these crimes should not have a statute of limitations in criminal cases, why is this a cause of concern to you in civil cases?

Innocent until proven guilty is only a guarantee from conviction without due process. Not the societal consequences of being an asshole. Epstein would have had his day in court. He decided to forgo that right.

The new law also increases the statute of limitation for criminal prosecution. I don't have any specific concerns, especially w.r.t. Epstein and his accomplices. I have general concerns about the trend that accusations of sexual assault, racism, and police injustice are being treated as defacto true because they are so heinous. It's just too easy in this era to make something up (or embellish) and get it out there. In the old days you could accuse your neighbor of being a witch, but it took a few weeks before the farmer in the next town could consider it. Now it's the speed of light and global. It's a different evil but it's still evil. Maybe I'm misreading this.

Has the social media demonizing of the falsely accused lead to the murder of 14 people yet? Cause until then we haven't surpassed even the Salem event, not to mention other witch hunts through history.

I'm not being flippant, but if you're going to make the analogy, let's see where it goes.

[unruhschuh]

It was suicide after all...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

or was it?

[Bcharles123]

Has the social media demonizing of the falsely accused lead to the murder of 14 people yet? Cause until then we haven't surpassed even the Salem event, not to mention other witch hunts through history.

I'm not being flippant, but if you're going to make the analogy, let's see where it goes.

The new law is fine. Very good intentions. I’ve said so explicitly.

I’m just wondering If it’s a trend. Your not concerned at all? I remember some of your very racists posts from the other place. And other than you are defacto a proven racist, you seem like a pretty good guy to me.

[hsilman]

Has the social media demonizing of the falsely accused lead to the murder of 14 people yet? Cause until then we haven't surpassed even the Salem event, not to mention other witch hunts through history.

I'm not being flippant, but if you're going to make the analogy, let's see where it goes.

The new law is fine. Very good intentions. I’ve said so explicitly.

I’m just wondering If it’s a trend. Your not concerned at all? I remember some of your very racists posts from the other place. And other than you are defacto a proven racist, you seem like a pretty good guy to me.

Assuming you aren't just messing with me, yeah I hope saying racist things sometimes doesn't mean you can never be a good person. I've definitely fucked up in my time, though I frankly don't know what you're talking about.

I didn't say I wasn't concerned or that bad shit doesn't happen, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do about it. My level of concern is generally low to moderate at best.

[DirtyRed]

Innocent until proven guilty is only a guarantee from conviction without due process. Not the societal consequences of being an asshole.

"Burden of proof" is a philosophical concept going back to at least ancient Greece. It's a fundamental pillar of higher thought. To shirk it because you are a hyper-emotional smoothbrain is to become fundamentally less than human.

And I see now people are losing their minds over about Epstein having broken bones in his neck is suspicious? The man was, I believe, in his 60s, and had likely never done a neck bridge in his life. The bloody hell do people expect to result from a suicide by hanging, given those facts? Every last one of you is a goddamn maniac. I am the last sane person left on earth, I am sure of it.

[aurelius]

"Burden of proof" is a philosophical concept going back to at least ancient Greece. It's a fundamental pillar of higher thought. To shirk it because you are a hyper-emotional smoothbrain is to become fundamentally less than human.

Hey fucking moron, there is no due process/burden of proof regarding thoughts and actions of individuals. It only applies to the State's enforcement of penalties against those accused of crimes. Unless you, a fucking moron, are suggesting the State should intervene/police thoughts and non-criminal actions of individuals, I have no idea what the idiot speak above is about. Having an IQ lower than the general population of monkeys should disqualify one from being a human being but here we are in 2019 giving you access to the internet. Fucking moron.

Football rulz!!!