Low-carb diets and ketosis

[platypus]

For several weeks now, I've been on a low carb diet (less than 30g/day), and things are going very well in terms of fat loss.

Every morning, I pee on a ketone test strip to see how deep into ketosis I am, and I've noticed I'm hardly ever in ketosis at all; it takes about a week with no vegetables to get there, and even then it's very mild unless I drink liquor. This has gotten me curious, since low carb diets are almost inevitably marketed as keto diets. Is there any disadvantage to not being in ketosis on a low-carbohydrate diet?

[Wilhelm]

You don't need to chase high urine or blood ketone levels.

I'd say at several weeks under 30 grams of carbs, you are almost certainly in ketosis.
It seems like you've done this before, so i'm thinking you have upregulated to better use fat for fuel.
What's in your urine is part of what you aren't using.
When i first started, and was testing blood, i would have high readings, like up to 3.6 millimolar.
But again, that's floating around in my blood, not being used.
As time went on, my levels dropped to .4 to 1.2 or 1.5 millimolar.
I had just gotten better at using them.
As your efficiency goes up, i would expect to see lower amounts being discarded.

Testing blood is better, though expensive.
But you really don't even need to do that.

You're in a deficit, right?
Are you hungry?
I mean hungry in the same way you would be on a regular diet in a deficit.
If you feel the difference, or are simply not hungry, you're there.

I think there is a problem with low carb that isn't low enough to induce ketosis, if you are eating that way chronically.
You are just energy starved then.
You should feel like shit mentally, because the brain is still using gulcose as its primary fuel, and you aren't eating enough carbs to satisfy all your systems, but you are eating enough to stave off ketosis.
No man's land, imo.

[JFick]

The piss strips are really for diabetics to make sure they're not in keto acidosis. Which kicks in at roughly 10 times higher blood ketone levels than nutritional ketosis. Meaning piss strips are really garbage for a keto Dieter. Blood monitors are much more accurate but also ultimately not necessary either. If you are eating under 50gs of carbs there's a 95% chance you are in ketosis.

[mbasic]

good info here

[Fzt]

Ketosis is orthogonal to weight loss, so as long as your weight is trending in the right direction (using an app like happy scale or libra), you feel ok and your diet meshes well with your lifestyle, keep on keeping on.

I would suggest that you eat vegetables though.

[Wilhelm]

I would suggest that you eat vegetables though.

^
Chard had almost no net carbs.
Brocolli has 1gram net per ounce.

And yes, it's caloric deficit that results in weight loss, regardless of which diet you use.
For many people, LCHF makes maintaining a deficit easy.
For myself, it made it possible at all.
Theoretically i could have lost 50lbs in 6 months eating carbs, but i know it would not have worked out in practice.
But i don't miss the foods i no longer eat.

Well, i did miss crunchy things, and all the keto cracker recipies are way more work than i want.
I recently discovered Wassa rye crisps, and one of those is 20 calories and 3.5 grams net carbs.

Butter or cream cheese on those is a real treat for me.
My daily carbs are hella low, so i have room for those.

[platypus]

You're in a deficit, right?
Are you hungry?

I'm in a deficit and I'm quite full.

I think there is a problem with low carb that isn't low enough to induce ketosis, if you are eating that way chronically.
You are just energy starved then.
You should feel like shit mentally, because the brain is still using gulcose as its primary fuel, and you aren't eating enough carbs to satisfy all your systems, but you are eating enough to stave off ketosis.
No man's land, imo.

Okay, that makes sense. Definitely not what I'm experiencing.

The piss strips are really for diabetics to make sure they're not in keto acidosis. Which kicks in at roughly 10 times higher blood ketone levels than nutritional ketosis. Meaning piss strips are really garbage for a keto Dieter. Blood monitors are much more accurate but also ultimately not necessary either. If you are eating under 50gs of carbs there's a 95% chance you are in ketosis.

That's good to know; I'll avoid putting any faith into the ketone strip readings.

I would suggest that you eat vegetables though.

Yeah, I've only done two veggie-free weeks, mostly out of curiosity. As it turns out, the digestive process is much improved by eating veggies. So there's at least one thing the food guide pyramid wasn't lying about...

[OrderInChaos]

Well, i did miss crunchy things, and all the keto cracker recipies are way more work than i want.
I recently discovered Wassa rye crisps, and one of those is 20 calories and 3.5 grams net carbs.

Butter or cream cheese on those is a real treat for me.
My daily carbs are hella low, so i have room for those.

Have you ever tried broiling kale on one of those racks-on-a-cookie sheet? Douse with some EVOO and salt+pep liberally and they're a nice crisp snack... they don't work well as chips and are more like the dried seaweed snack from asian markets. I thought they were pretty solid for that crisp effect

[Wilhelm]

I don't see myself doing that.
The wassa fit in my macro ratio, and i can spread stuff on them.
That's helpful, as i am trying to get more calories now as i start my slow bulk.

I'm on my last bit of whey concentrate, so that's a bunch of daily carbs gone when i go back to isolate.
But even using concentrate, i'm still well within my numbers.

[JohnHelton]

After telling myself that I was cutting and not doing it for a couple of months, I decided to go back to keto. I've lost 6 pounds in the last week (not moving average). Obviously, a fair amount of that is water weight, but I'm at very low calories without much hunger. I've also been reading Volek and Phinney's The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living. Fascinating. I'm pretty sure I have a fair amount of insulin resistance at this point in my life. If I'm not eating low carb, then I feel like I'm always dieting in an attempt not to get fat. We will see where this goes, but as of now, I'm planning of trying to bulk later while still very low carb/keto.

[FredM]

I'm pretty sure I have a fair amount of insulin resistance at this point in my life.

Time restricted feeding or intermittent fasting is generally a better, healthier, more natural way to address this -- with the added benefit of no proven deficits in strength outcomes.

[JohnHelton]

I'm pretty sure I have a fair amount of insulin resistance at this point in my life.

Time restricted feeding or intermittent fasting is generally a better, healthier, more natural way to address this -- with the added benefit of no proven deficits in strength outcomes.

I am intermittently fasting as well.

There is a lot of science behind both keto and fasting. I'm not really interested in debating the science though. I'm not a science guy. One should debate with the likes of Volek, Phinney and Dom D'agostino. They tend to be pretty convincing for a layman like me. What I like about them is that they will definitely say that a keto diet isn't necessary for everyone. However, for some of us, it can be very healthful. Incidentally, when I have done it in the past, my blood lipid panel showed remarkable improvements. Having heart disease in the family, this is non-trivial.

[Wilhelm]

One month till my 3 year ketoversary.

I sure am glad Reddit, and IG influencers invented this shit.

[5hout]

One month till my 3 year ketoversary.

I sure am glad Reddit, and IG influencers invented this shit.

I spent years 100% fail dieting (idk, whatever yo-yo dieting is, but where you never actually lose weight?). Then I did lose a bunch of weight and gained it all back practically overnight. Then I found keto/IF and it's been incredible. Actual control over my weight, not feeling insanely hungry all the time, not feeling terrified that if I gain a few pounds over a vacation I'll suddenly gain all the weight back.

I think my 3 year is coming up within a few months? Not really sure, would have to go through fbook.

A lot of stuff doesn't live up to the hype, but I think keto has exceeded it. I will admit the last bit of Texas Method I ran I did full out everything load to "eat through my sticking points".

[JohnHelton]

I spent years 100% fail dieting (idk, whatever yo-yo dieting is, but where you never actually lose weight?). Then I did lose a bunch of weight and gained it all back practically overnight. Then I found keto/IF and it's been incredible. Actual control over my weight, not feeling insanely hungry all the time, not feeling terrified that if I gain a few pounds over a vacation I'll suddenly gain all the weight back.

I think my 3 year is coming up within a few months? Not really sure, would have to go through fbook.

A lot of stuff doesn't live up to the hype, but I think keto has exceeded it. I will admit the last bit of Texas Method I ran I did full out everything load to "eat through my sticking points".

How much did you lose on keto? I'm not looking to lose that much, I just want to get my waist down to 33" and be able to keep it there.

[5hout]

I went from north of 235/240 to ~180-185 in a year, then in about .75-1 more year I went from 180-185 to ~165. I do not know how far north of 240.

I would, knowing nothing of your personal history, suggest trying IF with a high protein diet first. 2-3 meals, 18-20 hour fast, 4-6 eating window. If this doesn't work for you hunger, results or lifting wise then maybe keto.

To me, and this is pure opinion, keto is a last resort way of life/diet. Now, if you've been trying to lose weight for 5-10 years (or more), maybe it's time for the last resort, but I would strongly advise trying IF with 1.2g/lbs of bodyweight/day first. Nothing against keto, love it, but if you do not LOVE, and I mean LOVE, eating just piles of meat a day, you're going to hate keto + lifting.

A lot of the people on the keto subreddit/various interweb places are doing like 30g carbs, 90-120g protein and fat to make up the difference. This is great for cutting tons of weight, but if you want to lift (and lord help you if you want to bulk) you need more protein. This means 1-1.5lbs of meat, per day, every day.

If you can do IF it might be a bit easier to keep variety and diet enjoyment high, which will lead to long term compliance. Also: If you try keto, do it sometime when you can drink tons of caffeine and have all the salts on hand.

[Wilhelm]

...but if you do not LOVE, and I mean LOVE, eating just piles of meat a day, you're going to hate keto + lifting.

I eat very little meat.

[5hout]

What do you eat for protein/how low do you stay on carbs? I find I feel like shit if I go over 20 total carbs (not net) so my keto experiences are colored by a pretty restrictive set of non-meant based proteins. Also: I'm allergic to casein, so while I can do whey isolate, cheese as a regular thing is out.

[Wilhelm]

I almost never go over 20 grams carbs.
I buy whey isolate in 20 kilo bags.
Eggs, greek yogurt, fish, and sometimes (not often at all) chicken thighs or grass fed beef sausage.

[JohnHelton]

I'm good with the foods associated with keto. I will admit that getting into a calorie surplus on keto looks daunting. At that point, I may bridge the gap by being just low-carb rather than keto. Doing so would certainly be much easier, but then it is easy to backslide too.

Congratulations, @Shout, on your weight loss. That is remarkable. Are you fairly lean now at 165?