Police Reform Thread

[aurelius]

Can someone who knows something about this stuff explain why it's done like this?

1) Either no or poor training. Many LE departments give almost no tactical training. If you just go to a weekend warrior training session you are probably better trained than 90% of LE. Seriously.
2) No clear chain of command on site. This is consistent problem. Every officer on site is yelling commands and taking initiative. With comical and tragic results. Most commonly seen during the 'deadliest game of Simon says'.
3) Poor recruitment. The man that opened fire at his colleagues wearing the Rambo bandana should not have made it through the selection process to be a LE officer.

In short, this is not how it is done.

[mikeylikey]

Can someone who knows something about this stuff explain why it's done like this?

1) Either no or poor training. Many LE departments give almost no tactical training. If you just go to a weekend warrior training session you are probably better trained than 90% of LE. Seriously.

Despite the fact that what time they do spend on training tends to be heavily skewed towards guns and tactics.

And after the academy they get functionally zero continuing education. For example, 24 hours/year in my state.

An article or some such that I recently read made the case very well that we really should have police spending something like 25% of their paid hours in ongoing training. That is politically difficult because now you are spending the same amount of money for 25% fewer cop-hours on the street. And the point was, maybe if you had 3/4 the number of cops but they were twice as effective, the outcomes would be way better. And it's not a stretch to imagine that going from 3 days/year to 50 of training and education might well double the effectiveness of cops in the most important and sensitive situations.

And I'll say it again, we need to have different kinds of police for different kinds of police work. It's not fair to any stakeholder for the same guy to be giving a ticket for jaywalking one minute and having a standoff with a murderer the next. The existing paradigm of traffic enforcement as the primary origination point of police interactions, simultaneously motivated as a means of sweeping up dangerous fugitives on the one hand and raising revenue from ordinary citizens on the other, is ludicrous.

[hector]

Despite the fact that what time they do spend on training tends to be heavily skewed towards guns and tactics.

And after the academy they get functionally zero continuing education. For example, 24 hours/year in my state.

An article or some such that I recently read made the case very well that we really should have police spending something like 25% of their paid hours in ongoing training. That is politically difficult because now you are spending the same amount of money for 25% fewer cop-hours on the street. And the point was, maybe if you had 3/4 the number of cops but they were twice as effective, the outcomes would be way better. And it's not a stretch to imagine that going from 3 days/year to 50 of training and education might well double the effectiveness of cops in the most important and sensitive situations.

And I'll say it again, we need to have different kinds of police for different kinds of police work. It's not fair to any stakeholder for the same guy to be giving a ticket for jaywalking one minute and having a standoff with a murderer the next. The existing paradigm of traffic enforcement as the primary origination point of police interactions, simultaneously motivated as a means of sweeping up dangerous fugitives on the one hand and raising revenue from ordinary citizens on the other, is ludicrous.

If the 25% training meant fewer lawsuits, it might be financially prudent. (NYC will spend hundreds of millions a year on law suits.)

And if less people were murdered or hurt, there’d be a moral argument.

But those are big “if” qualifiers. As the pool of people who want to be cops shrink, should recruiting standards follow suit, then things will probably get worse, regardless of training. But maybe less worse with the right training.

Jocko has made the argument for a long time that police should be training 25% of the time.

[mikeylikey]

If the 25% training meant fewer lawsuits, it might be financially prudent. (NYC will spend hundreds of millions a year on law suits.)

And if less people were murdered or hurt, there’d be a moral argument.

The moral argument seems pretty obvious.

Fiscally speaking, if Derek Chauvin and the three other MPD officers were spending even tens of hours per month in a remotely sensible training regime, George Floyd does not get murdered on camera. Think about the savings to Minneapolis alone, let alone the country... Not just the civil award to the family, but the criminal trial(s), riots, lost time and productivity of public and private sector alike, and then lingering effects on the city. I would wager its in the hundreds of millions.

Jocko has made the argument for a long time that police should be training 25% of the time.

The military spends what, 100 hours training for every hour in combat?

Not necessarily practical for police as there is a lot more administrative busy work to be done but still. Tens of hours per year is way too far the other direction.

[hector]

If the 25% training meant fewer lawsuits, it might be financially prudent. (NYC will spend hundreds of millions a year on law suits.)

And if less people were murdered or hurt, there’d be a moral argument.

The moral argument seems pretty obvious.

Fiscally speaking, if Derek Chauvin and the three other MPD officers were spending even tens of hours per month in a remotely sensible training regime, George Floyd does not get murdered on camera. Think about the savings to Minneapolis alone, let alone the country... Not just the civil award to the family, but the criminal trial(s), riots, lost time and productivity of public and private sector alike, and then lingering effects on the city. I would wager its in the hundreds of millions.

Jocko has made the argument for a long time that police should be training 25% of the time.

The military spends what, 100 hours training for every hour in combat?

Not necessarily practical for police as there is a lot more administrative busy work to be done but still. Tens of hours per year is way too far the other direction.

I’m glad you agree on the moral point. And would have expected you to. But there are huge swaths of the country that don’t. When a SWAT team throws a flash-bang grenade in through a window and a baby is maimed, there are no drugs, and the whole operation is based on bad “intelligence”, what sort of accountability would a moral system demand? Idk. Our system doesn’t demand much.

https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/07/us/georg ... index.html

(For sure there are more recent examples, but this one always sticks with me.) Politicians willing to do the things this way keep getting voted in. There are changes at the margins, with relentless abuse maybe shifting emphasis over time from low income criminals to Muslims to immigrants to whatever the current flavor is. No matter, the machine’s gears keep turning.

When you mandate LE enforce immoral laws maybe “morality” isn’t even a metric you can properly use.

What was the lesson that MPD officers took from Chauvin? Not to murder? Or not to murder on video?

Also, I’m not sure I agree with the financial argument I made in my last post. It was too hasty. Yes, I think better training could pay for itself in reduced settlements. But for a true cost/benefit analysis you would have to know the state’s desired outcome. Money is only a part of it. Further complicating things, “the state” is shorthand here for something too complex to easily describe (at least for me) in this context. Specifically, I’m thinking about public choice theory. What are the incentives and preferences of the prison system? Of private prison shareholders? Of police? Of the people in power who might benefit from a system that takes voting rights away, disproportionately, from poor and minorities?

Idk. I’m traveling with wifi only for a few minutes. No time to edit. Hope this is readable.

[KyleSchuant]

for a true cost/benefit analysis you would have to know the state’s desired outcome. Money is only a part of it.

Sure. After all, on a purely financial basis, it'd probably be better to have no prisons at all. In Australia we spend $330 per prisoner a day, $120k annually. They can't all be thieves pulling in $120k annually.

But I guess looking at it through the financial filter would explain the focus on traffic infringement stuff.

[mikeylikey]

When you mandate LE enforce immoral laws maybe “morality” isn’t even a metric you can properly use.

What was the lesson that MPD officers took from Chauvin? Not to murder? Or not to murder on video?

At some level, do we care? Cameras are everywhere. "Not murdering on video" asymptotically approaches "not murdering."

Thought experiment, suppose we convinced two demographically identical jurisdictions to implement our 25% training time suggestion. One jurisdiction runs a Mikey-Hector training curriculum, based on Kantian ethics and first-principles-derived moral policing. The other jurisdiction does the same ~500 hours/year of training but their program is a total self-serving CYA curriculum designed entirely by the police union and motivated primarily by outcomes for officers.

Don't you think both of those training regimes probably contain some mention of "here's what positional asphyxiation looks like, and how to avoid it"? "here is how to fend off a scary dog without shooting the owner's baby" etc etc. Don't you think that in both jurisdictions, the outcomes would improve?

The entire George Floyd murder took place on camera, all the officers knew it. That says to me they didn't think what they were doing was wrong they could get in trouble for what they were doing. I think that is a training problem. Is it also a moral problem? Yes. We can't pass a law to make police departments more moral. We can make them train more.

[hector]

When you mandate LE enforce immoral laws maybe “morality” isn’t even a metric you can properly use.

What was the lesson that MPD officers took from Chauvin? Not to murder? Or not to murder on video?

At some level, do we care? Cameras are everywhere. "Not murdering on video" asymptotically approaches "not murdering."

Thought experiment, suppose we convinced two demographically identical jurisdictions to implement our 25% training time suggestion. One jurisdiction runs a Mikey-Hector training curriculum, based on Kantian ethics and first-principles-derived moral policing. The other jurisdiction does the same ~500 hours/year of training but their program is a total self-serving CYA curriculum designed entirely by the police union and motivated primarily by outcomes for officers.

Don't you think both of those training regimes probably contain some mention of "here's what positional asphyxiation looks like, and how to avoid it"? "here is how to fend off a scary dog without shooting the owner's baby" etc etc. Don't you think that in both jurisdictions, the outcomes would improve?

The entire George Floyd murder took place on camera, all the officers knew it. That says to me they didn't think what they were doing was wrong they could get in trouble for what they were doing. I think that is a training problem. Is it also a moral problem? Yes. We can't pass a law to make police departments more moral. We can make them train more.

I think you’re right.
For the difference between not-doing vs not-getting-caught I immediately thought of the Burge tortures in Chicago, but I’d like to think that wouldn’t be a thing today given the ubiquitous cameras. And defendants could use their Cel phone location history to show they’d been at a black site for hours, before any arrest report was written.

I think if a police culture were based totally around cya then while the number of public police murders would drop (yay!) we might also be faced with police who are more hesitant to get involved in unclear, ambiguous, violent situations where they know an out of context video could cause issues.

Hopefully this is a temporary thing, and new tactics will evolve so that we get both non-murdering police and police who intervene as necessary.

(Obviously, I’m out of my element here. If there are any actual police I’d love to hear your opinion. Man, I miss White Ninja.)

[mikeylikey]

On second thought, maybe there isn't much hope after all.

https://www.wlbt.com/2023/08/03/six-for ... black-men/

[mbasic]

On second thought, maybe there isn't much hope after all.

https://www.wlbt.com/2023/08/03/six-for ... black-men/

my ADHD is getting the better of me .... I'm skimming and skipping around that article and its like ... "WTF!!!!"

I'll have to read this later after a take my meds or something

[mbasic]

HOW IT STARTED:

irs-plans-hire-gun-carrying-special-agents-all-50-states

HOW'S IT GOING:

irs-agent-accidentally-shot-killed-by-fellow-agent-during-training-gun-range

[mikeylikey]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ma ... rcna101750

A New York City police sergeant was suspended Thursday, a day after he allegedly threw a picnic cooler at a man on a motorbike who subsequently crashed and died, authorities said.

Police said Duprey tried to flee after he was caught selling drugs to an undercover officer, and that the sergeant was standing on the sidewalk as part of the “buy-and-bust” operation, The Associated Press reported.

This is a clear-cut case of qualified immunity, as there are almost certainly no examples in case law of a judge finding that throwing a cooler at a fleeing suspect on a moped is illegal.

[mikeylikey]

A judge on Tuesday dismissed all charges, including murder, against the Philadelphia police officer who had been accused of wrongfully killing a motorist last month.

Mark Dial pulled over Eddie Irizarry, 27, on Aug. 14 before he shot him through the rolled-up driver's side window, body camera video has shown.

The video was played in court Tuesday, but Philadelphia Municipal Judge Wendy Pew ruled there was not enough evidence to go to trial, bringing an emotional reaction from Irizarry's loved ones in court.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ju ... rcna117395

Name checks out.

[DCR]

I’ve been following this one over the past two weeks. I can’t pinpoint precisely why but I’ve found it particularly sickening.

https://lawandcrime.com/caught-on-video ... dy-arrest/

[mbasic]

I’ve been following this one over the past two weeks. I can’t pinpoint precisely why but I’ve found it particularly sickening.

https://lawandcrime.com/caught-on-video ... dy-arrest/

haven't heard about this one at all

[aurelius]

I’ve been following this one over the past two weeks. I can’t pinpoint precisely why but I’ve found it particularly sickening.

It has all the elements of what this thread is about.

---Minor infraction that an elementary school hall monitor could have enforced without violence...check
---Escalation to violence for 'not respecting authority'...check
---despite video evidence of criminal behavior by the officer, police department supports officer...check

What is interesting is the prosecutor dismissed the charges with prejudice at the earliest possible date. Which leads me to believe the prosecutor will bring charges against the officer.

[DCR]

I’ve been following this one over the past two weeks. I can’t pinpoint precisely why but I’ve found it particularly sickening.

It has all the elements of what this thread is about.

---Minor infraction that an elementary school hall monitor could have enforced without violence...check
---Escalation to violence for 'not respecting authority'...check
---despite video evidence of criminal behavior by the officer, police department supports officer...check

What is interesting is the prosecutor dismissed the charges with prejudice at the earliest possible date. Which leads me to believe the prosecutor will bring charges against the officer.

The bolded in particular I think is what most infuriated me here.

It does seem that charges will be brought, which leads to another cop issue: Say he does a year or two in prison. How long before he’s not only out, but rehired as a cop in some bumblefuck town? It seems as if short of murdering someone there is nearly nothing that keeps this trash unemployed for long.

[aurelius]

It does seem that charges will be brought, which leads to another cop issue: Say he does a year or two in prison. How long before he’s not only out, but rehired as a cop in some bumblefuck town? It seems as if short of murdering someone there is nearly nothing that keeps this trash unemployed for long.

I want to say, but not 100% positive; that if an officer is a convicted felon, they can't be a police officer? Which is why it needs to be normalized prosecuting the criminal behavior of police officers.

[DCR]

It does seem that charges will be brought, which leads to another cop issue: Say he does a year or two in prison. How long before he’s not only out, but rehired as a cop in some bumblefuck town? It seems as if short of murdering someone there is nearly nothing that keeps this trash unemployed for long.

I want to say, but not 100% positive; that if an officer is a convicted felon, they can't be a police officer? Which is why it needs to be normalized prosecuting the criminal behavior of police officers.

I hope you’re right. I may be conflating with the ones who beat the shit out of multiple undeserving people and are investigated but never prosecuted.

[mbasic]

welp this case seems to be wrapping up

https://sentinelcolorado.com/metro/jury ... h-mcclain/

So if I'm reading everything right, 1 out of the 3 cops, and 2 paramedics found guilty of .... criminal negligent homicide or something not along those lines. "Assault" lol assault leading to death should be manslaughter or something.

From what I remember, I think Elijah McClain was fairly motionless and calm (not panicing) for a minute or more while they stood around and debated whether or not to give him a/the ketamine shot. So the alleged "panic attack induced delirium" had subsided....then why shoot him up? And lol at that kid weighing 190#. Its funny (sad funny) to me too .... say if he was acting strange in their opinion, and perhaps on drugs, you give him MORE drugs? out of the back of an ambul-Van willy-nilly impromptu-like on the street without diagnosing anything or running some tests.

Lol at this shit:

The outcome could set a precedent for how emergency personnel respond to situations with people in police custody, said University of Miami criminologist Alex Piquero.

“Imagine if you’re a paramedic,” Piquero said. “They could be hesitant. They could say, ‘I’m not going to do anything’ or ‘I’m going to do less. I don’t want to be found guilty.'”

The International Association of Fire Fighters said in a statement that in pursuing the charges, Colorado Attorney General Phil Weiser had criminalized split-second medical decisions and set “a dangerous, chilling precedent for pre-hospital care.”

yeah, maybe abide by the first rule (or whatev) of that Hippocratic oath thingy: 'do no harm' or something something.