Police Reform Thread

[fishwife]

Re: gallows humor among professionals in tough jobs, between friends who know how to read one another's comments, etc., yeah, those are all legit points. When you're in an in-group like that, there's a different frame of reference for interpreting these things.

But this officer did not know this woman. He was interacting with her in a LE capacity, he as enforcer, she as subject, basically. So the basis for his in-group joking here was that they're both white--or at least not black. That's pretty fucking shitty. Not to mention that the medical analog would be like a doctor joking with me about how I wouldn't end up a "vegetable" like the guy in the next room because I'm not obese or not old or whatever before I'm wheeled in for brain surgery. It's really not all that excusable.

Nobody's saying that he's evil and going to burn a cross on anyone's lawn. But the most generous interpretation you can put on this is that he isn't very aware of or knowledgeable about racial issues and non-white POVs... and aren't those things an LE officer shouldn't lack? So best case scenario: a big incompetent hole in the skillset he needs to do his job effectively.

[DirtyRed]

Sorta feels a little hollow without MEH and Strega in here.

Maybe I could simulate the experience...

What about using illegal chokes?

It's not illegal if a police officer is doing it. Futhermore, that isn't a choke, that's a strangulation. One I learned from my sensei when I interned with a Judo dojo in the 20s.

MY 20s, not the 1920s. This was actually back during the early Meiji Era, which ended in the 60s.

MY 60s. The Meiji era ended in the early 20th century.

ETA: Some high falutin' bullshit about chess or "avant garde" movies in a desperate attempt to hide the fact that I am a programmed puppet without any actual intelligence of my own.

[ColoWayno]

Jesus, it's like no one read my link and everyone just wants to argue about the story I thought would make a clever title for a cop thread.

You are welcome!

[cwd]

There, is that good?

Yep, that should be sufficient to get a debate going. Thnaks.

[cwd]

Not to mention that the medical analog would be like a doctor joking with me about how I wouldn't end up a "vegetable" like the guy in the next room because I'm not obese or not old or whatever before I'm wheeled in for brain surgery. It's really not all that excusable.

Yep, the officer here lapsed into locker-room black humor at an inappropriate time, displaying unprofessional attitude and lack of respect for sensitive racial issues.

But it's the sort of mistake I can imagine making myself. I don't consider myself to be so tainted by racism as to be unsuited for facing the public, though I have all the classic white-guy blind spots and insensitivities.

It doesn't seem like a firing offense. We need a *lot* of cops, and we don't pay well enough to staff entirely from saints.

[bugbomb]

Jesus, it's like no one read my link and everyone just wants to argue about the story I thought would make a clever title for a cop thread.

If ithryn has to channel MEH and Strega, I feel it's my duty to channel ud2o.

[fishwife]

But it's the sort of mistake I can imagine making myself. I don't consider myself to be so tainted by racism as to be unsuited for facing the public, though I have all the classic white-guy blind spots and insensitivities.

Yeah, but does your job involve carrying a gun, the ability to take away the freedom and property of others, and what is practically license to kill black dudes without having to face jail?

[cwd]

Yeah, but does your job involve carrying a gun, the ability to take away the freedom and property of others, and what is practically license to kill black dudes without having to face jail?

Being a cop is an associates-degree or 12-week training-course sort of job.

The people who start this career didn't give up a chance to be a veterinarian or college professor.
Their alternatives were jobs like HVAC technician, auto mechanic, or LP nurse.

Now if we upped the pay and set higher standards, we could make being a cop comparable to being an RN nurse, electrical engineer, or high school teacher.
We could have an all-middle-class police force. We could have middle-class levels of professionalism.

But right now, we have a mostly blue-collar police force. That has consequences.

[bugbomb]

Yeah, but does your job involve carrying a gun, the ability to take away the freedom and property of others, and what is practically license to kill black dudes without having to face jail?

The question is whether the cop's joke indicates that he's more or less likely to kill a black dude. I'm not sure it speaks to that question one way or another. It's fascinatingly vague.

Again, to the extent that a cop should be aware that everything he says is public, it was bad judgement to say it at all.

[DirtyRed]

We need a *lot* of cops,

Why?

[fishwife]

Being a cop is an associates-degree or 12-week training-course sort of job.

The people who start this career didn't give up a chance to be a veterinarian or college professor.
Their alternatives were jobs like HVAC technician, auto mechanic, or LP nurse.

Now if we upped the pay and set higher standards, we could make being a cop comparable to being an RN nurse, electrical engineer, or high school teacher.
We could have an all-middle-class police force. We could have middle-class levels of professionalism.

But right now, we have a mostly blue-collar police force. That has consequences.

These are all good points with which you already know I agree, but the officer in question was a Lt. He'd been a police officer in that department for 28 years. This isn't some rookie blue collar kid a few years out of high school.

At some point, if a department is serious about changing its culture regarding race and use of force, it has to start holding its officers accountable. Too often, the people who get terminated for these sorts of things are rookies who don't have seniority and union protection--but those are the guys who might still be able to learn.

Yeah, it sucks that cops who actually murder people get off so often. But a lot of that happens because people realize that killing people might have to be part of a cop's job. Making light of killing people in front of the public, OTOH, is never something a cop ever has to do to do his or her job. A lot of it also has to do with incidents over which police unions can throw their weight around. Not excusing any of that. Just pointing out that the fact that it's fucked up that cops will off and keep their jobs for killing people unnecessarily while they can get fired for joking about it to the public doesn't mean the latter shouldn't be a termination-worthy offense for a 28-year veteran Lt. in 2017.

[DirtyRed]

If he's a 28 year veteran that hasn't previous actually killed anyone, what the fuck actual harm is done by a joke?

Congratulations, bitchmade, you just got rid of an officer that might have actually been COMPETENT for no good reason.

[fishwife]

If he's a 28 year veteran that hasn't previous actually killed anyone, what the fuck actual harm is done by a joke?

Congratulations, bitchmade, you just got rid of an officer that might have actually been COMPETENT for no good reason.

Just because he hasn't killed anyone doesn't mean he's not racist or that his racism doesn't affect his job or that people haven't suffered from racist decisions he may have made.

And it's not just about one person's record. If you were the administrator of a hospital who had a heart surgeon who was never sued for malpractice but she was caught openly joking to patients about how surgeons don't go out of their way for obese patients or old patients, would you keep her?

[bugbomb]

Just because he hasn't killed anyone doesn't mean he's not racist or that his racism doesn't affect his job or that people haven't suffered from racist decisions he may have made.

And it's not just about one person's record. If you were the administrator of a hospital who had a heart surgeon who was never sued for malpractice but she was caught openly joking to patients about how surgeons don't go out of their way for obese patients or old patients, would you keep her?

Is there a pre-existing national narrative about surgeons ignoring obese/old patients that the surgeon's joke was clearly referencing?

Unless I know (reasonable certainty) that based on what I know of this particular cop/surgeon he/she was admitting bias rather than acknowledging a narrative about bias, no, I wouldn't fire either one. I mean, I even think that the cop was delivering the joke with a sneer - he's a lifer cop, he doesn't buy the narrative - but at this point any decision to fire him has less to do with his fitness for the job and more to do with delivering a message to the community/country. And maybe delivering that message - "we the department also acknowledge this narrative, but we take it too seriously to allow it to be joked about" - is a good thing, but I don't buy that this guy was a racist cop.

Just my interpretation. Parsing shit I couldn't possibly know about, as usual.

[mikeylikey]

Being a cop is an associates-degree or 12-week training-course sort of job.

The people who start this career didn't give up a chance to be a veterinarian or college professor.
Their alternatives were jobs like HVAC technician, auto mechanic, or LP nurse.

Now if we upped the pay and set higher standards, we could make being a cop comparable to being an RN nurse, electrical engineer, or high school teacher.
We could have an all-middle-class police force. We could have middle-class levels of professionalism.

But right now, we have a mostly blue-collar police force. That has consequences.

This might be part of it. I don't think recruiting 100% perfect people would solve the problem, because the problem is with the very nature of what police do. One minute you're giving a ticket for jaywalking, the next minute you're arresting a raper or robber. That's just asking for trouble.

I mean FFS. Okay Mr. officer, here's what we want you to do: go out and stop crime. You can get bonuses and promotions for arresting law breakers. And believe me, there's a lot of lawbreakers, because pretty much All The Fun Things are illegal. Oh also, while you're at it, can you do make sure nobody loiters or runs stop signs? BTW, it's like totally cool to use those infractions as a pretense to investigate anyone who looks fishy to you. Oh and one other thing, literally because you're doing that last thing, keep in mind that everyone you interact with might be 0.5 seconds from taking your gun with ninja moves and shooting you in the face with it. Probably not, but just keep that in mind. Anyway, you can pretty much shoot anybody you want and nothing will happen to you. Good luck!

The problem is police have 2 mandates: preventing infractions, and catching criminals. This is how a routine traffic stop can turn into a shootout. This is stupid. There is no reason a guy with a gun hopped up on adrenaline because he thinks he's going to catch a murderer should be pulling somebody over for failing to use their blinker.

Security guards and bouncers don't need to shoot people, because their mandate is simple: make it clear to the bad guys that hurting the people or property under protection is going to cost more than it's worth. That's it. Their function is preventative in nature. You don't hire a security guard for your store to catch shoplifters. You hire him so the shoplifters don't come around in the first place.



The hunting and apprehending of criminals should be left to a separate group. Undercover, detectives, whatever. You can't effectively pursue both objectives at the same time.

[hsilman]

The hunting and apprehending of criminals should be left to a separate group. Undercover, detectives, whatever. You can't effectively pursue both objectives at the same time.

Absolutely agree, and the recent Supreme Court cases have touched on this. What exactly is the purpose of "the police force"? The legal function, the public perception, and what they actually do, all seem to be different things.

Also never, ever, EVER post another gif with dialogue that doesn't have subtitles. Or fake ones. Either way, it's horrible and I consider an assault on my brain which will be met with deadly force. You could be a ninja, how do I know?

[cwd]

But right now, we have a mostly blue-collar police force. That has consequences.

These are all good points with which you already know I agree, but the officer in question was a Lt. He'd been a police officer in that department for 28 years. This isn't some rookie blue collar kid a few years out of high school.

Ugh. Did not know that.

[ithryn]

Unless I know (reasonable certainty) that based on what I know of this particular cop/surgeon he/she was admitting bias rather than acknowledging a narrative about bias, no, I wouldn't fire either one. I mean, I even think that the cop was delivering the joke with a sneer - he's a lifer cop, he doesn't buy the narrative - but at this point any decision to fire him has less to do with his fitness for the job and more to do with delivering a message to the community/country. And maybe delivering that message - "we the department also acknowledge this narrative, but we take it too seriously to allow it to be joked about" - is a good thing, but I don't buy that this guy was a racist cop.

Just my interpretation. Parsing shit I couldn't possibly know about, as usual.

Yeah essentially. This is pretty crucial. The guy doesn't believe a narrative about how evil his profession currently is which Fishwife and many people in that end of the political spectrum believe with absolute certainty and beyond any shadow of a doubt. So he had gallows humor about how badly the profession is being portrayed right now, not operating from the premise that fishwife is operating from and therefore had no idea of the (possible) gravity of the joke.

Again, black people thought trauma doctors were just hunting for organs. They're in a shitty position in society, and they have a history of actual medical abuse by the establishment, so I get it, but I don't think that's occurring now. If a doctor joked about it, it would be absolutely shocking to a person who did believe doctors see black people as guinea pigs.

Right now I think the calm middle path would be to reform the police, have strict standards, teach some crisis de-escalation, elevate their position in society since constantly telling people they're shit and then giving them guns and authority over you seems like a bad idea, increase their numbers (hear me out, a higher police : crime ratio will produce less stressed cops), brings some damn jobs back to urban black neighborhoods so they aren't looking for illegal employment, and someone will probably say legalize drugs.

Instead many towns are just operating with a cover your ass mentality. Everyone thinks they're deliberate racist killers so the slightest appearance of anyone balking that they might be a racist killer = firings. Or riots. Pick one.

[ithryn]

As for the St Louis riots, didn't they try to pin that cop with first degree murder? Why do they keep doing that? Way to fail on reasonable doubt. That's stupid. Just slam him with manslaughter. Also maybe try to manipulate the news into getting on the same page instead of hyping up a first degree murder charge.

I mean is this level of failure intentional? Are they throwing the case so riots will happen? If I think about this for another second I'll be Alex Jonesing it.

[DirtyRed]

If he's a 28 year veteran that hasn't previous actually killed anyone, what the fuck actual harm is done by a joke?

Congratulations, bitchmade, you just got rid of an officer that might have actually been COMPETENT for no good reason.

Just because he hasn't killed anyone doesn't mean he's not racist or that his racism doesn't affect his job or that people haven't suffered from racist decisions he may have made.

Well, if you can find evidence of him actually being a racist, or his alleged racism affecting his job, I'd be happy to see it.

And it's not just about one person's record. If you were the administrator of a hospital who had a heart surgeon who was never sued for malpractice but she was caught openly joking to patients about how surgeons don't go out of their way for obese patients or old patients, would you keep her?

If that's the first complaint against a surgeon in 28 years, I'm definitely keeping him.

Is there a pre-existing national narrative about surgeons ignoring obese/old patients that the surgeon's joke was clearly referencing?

Unless I know (reasonable certainty) that based on what I know of this particular cop/surgeon he/she was admitting bias rather than acknowledging a narrative about bias, no, I wouldn't fire either one. I mean, I even think that the cop was delivering the joke with a sneer - he's a lifer cop, he doesn't buy the narrative - but at this point any decision to fire him has less to do with his fitness for the job and more to do with delivering a message to the community/country. And maybe delivering that message - "we the department also acknowledge this narrative, but we take it too seriously to allow it to be joked about" - is a good thing, but I don't buy that this guy was a racist cop.

Just my interpretation. Parsing shit I couldn't possibly know about, as usual.

1.) It wouldn't deliver that message. Because all of the shit the State and Police do in order harm black people will still be BLATANTLY going on. It would send the message that "We are totally fine with doing pretty much nothing of any material effect on our part if it stops you from whining for a fucking day."
2.) That's not a good thing. The White Guilt crowd doesn't need any more encouragement to cry about meaningless shit like this so they can feel good about how they "fought racism," or some stupid bullshit. What they need is to have a Come to Jesus moment about how hurt feelings don't fucking matter, especially in comparison to the grievous, material harm shit like the war on drugs and traffic cops do to not rich "people."

The guy doesn't believe a narrative about how evil his profession currently is which Fishwife and many people in that end of the political spectrum believe with absolute certainty and beyond any shadow of a doubt.

It is nakedly obvious that police work is objectively evil, if one is willing to actually combine observable facts with logic.

Right now I think the calm middle path would be to reform the police, have strict standards, teach some crisis de-escalation, elevate their position in society since constantly telling people they're shit and then giving them guns and authority over you seems like a bad idea,

That is the second worst idea I have ever heard. The recurring theme in Cop Kills Harmless/Innocent Man stories is that cops have WAY too high an opinion of themselves and their authority. They need to be reminded that they are fucking servants. Or fired. Fired is better.

increase their numbers (hear me out, a higher police : crime ratio will produce less stressed cops),

THAT is the worst idea I've ever heard. That would only lead to more officers with not shit to do but drum up citations and shit.

brings some damn jobs back to urban black neighborhoods so they aren't looking for illegal employment,

How would you suggest that happen?