distribution of alcohol consumption

[DoctorWho]

Where is the data that says moderate drinking is bad for a person?

@cgeorgiev is heatin up the booth! (I don't know exactly what that means, but I've heard said as a great compliment.).
Baller (don't really know what this is about either, but meant with the highest regard.)

[Allentown]

Where is the data that says moderate drinking is bad for a person?

Based on this thread, "moderate" probably falls around 2 drinks a week, right?

[cwd]

Where is the data that says moderate drinking is bad for a person?

Based on this thread, "moderate" probably falls around 2 drinks a week, right?

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45283401 -- the safe dose of alcohol is zero.

Moderate alcohol does provide some protection against heart disease, but not enough to outweigh the cancer and such it causes.

The absolute level of risk is pretty trivial for up to 1-2 drinks per day though.

[heidikay]

Where is the data that says moderate drinking is bad for a person?

Based on this thread, "moderate" probably falls around 2 drinks a week, right?

I think it's two CRAFT BEERS a week right?

[DoctorWho]

This feels a little like the food pyramid to me. Causation and correlation is just one problem, but also cancer will kill all of us if something else doesn't first. Without more, like age distribution, isn't a correlation with cancer evidence of longevity -- that nothing else is killing drinkers until the eventuality of cancer?

PS. My life is better with good sleep, which a beer or two in the evening promotes.

[asdf]

This feels a little like the food pyramid to me. Causation and correlation is just one problem, but also cancer will kill all of us if something else doesn't first. Without more, like age distribution, isn't a correlation with cancer evidence of longevity -- that nothing else is killing drinkers until the eventuality of cancer?

PS. My life is better with good sleep, which a beer or two in the evening promotes.

These are worth reading:

https://www.motherjones.com/food/2018/0 ... u-thought/

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... st-cancer/

[BostonRugger]

I haven’t had a drink in 7 years this past April, but right before I got sober I was drinking about a fifth of vodka each night + 3-4 bombers of beer when I would wake up at 4am.

Have you been reading my diary?

Seriously though, good on ya. Congrats on 7 and to hopefully never having to feel that way again.

[cwd]

This feels a little like the food pyramid to me. Causation and correlation is just one problem, but also cancer will kill all of us if something else doesn't first. Without more, like age distribution, isn't a correlation with cancer evidence of longevity -- that nothing else is killing drinkers until the eventuality of cancer?

PS. My life is better with good sleep, which a beer or two in the evening promotes.

This smells like motivated reasoning, right?

This large collection of studies conducted by experts in not-my-field, concludes that thing-I-like is harmful.
I bet they forgot to control for confounder-that-is-obvious-even-to-laymen. I'm going to doubt this finding.

You don't have to do that in this case, you can keep drinking modestly and still maintain sound epistemology.

They are very sure of the causality here, it's well-established. But the absolute level of risk for up to 1-2 servings/day is quite small. We're talking micro-morts here, you shave away your lifespan in bigger chunks for smaller reasons every day.

[DoctorWho]

This feels a little like the food pyramid to me. Causation and correlation is just one problem, but also cancer will kill all of us if something else doesn't first. Without more, like age distribution, isn't a correlation with cancer evidence of longevity -- that nothing else is killing drinkers until the eventuality of cancer?

PS. My life is better with good sleep, which a beer or two in the evening promotes.

This smells like motivated reasoning, right?

This large collection of studies conducted by experts in not-my-field, concludes that thing-I-like is harmful.
I bet they forgot to control for confounder-that-is-obvious-even-to-laymen. I'm going to doubt this finding.

You don't have to do that in this case, you can keep drinking modestly and still maintain sound epistemology.

They are very sure of the causality here, it's well-established. But the absolute level of risk for up to 1-2 servings/day is quite small. We're talking micro-morts here, you shave away your lifespan in bigger chunks for smaller reasons every day.

You're right up to a point. My skepticism serves my interests in this case -- I try to be skeptical about everything but here is it motivated thinking -- but it doesn't make skepticism inapt.

The articles have too much progressive ideology to be trusted: corporate advertising covers things up, researcher looking for the truth couldn't get funded, etc. These facts, even if true, have zero to do with answering the ultimate question. The study itself, even just the abstract, is beyond my expertise to criticize, except for the fact that it's a study of other studies, concluding that the original researchers were wrong. It seems to me to be important but not the final word either way.

[Allentown]

I think it's two CRAFT BEERS a week right?

That would be my preference, sure.
I went a little over this week-one beer on Tuesday (maple, vanilla, and cinnamon imperial stout), two beers on Tuesday (BiL came over to help move a couch and loveseat, then we split two barley/wheatwines), then three on Sunday (two with lunch- sour with tamarind & cascara then a dark farmhouse, then shared a saison with the BiL at dinner).

[TimK]

The immediate effects on my body composition from having 2-3 drinks per day would be much more distressing to me than a 2 percent increase in absolute risk of cancer at some distant point in the future (or whatever the number is). 2-3 drinks a week would be such a slight increase in risk as to be not even worth thinking about IMO. I'm probably closer to 2-3 drinks/month at this point though, so I guess I'm going to get ripped and live forever.

[cwd]

You're right up to a point. My skepticism serves my interests in this case -- I try to be skeptical about everything but here is it motivated thinking -- but it doesn't make skepticism inapt.

The articles have too much progressive ideology to be trusted: corporate advertising covers things up, researcher looking for the truth couldn't get funded, etc. These facts, even if true, have zero to do with answering the ultimate question. The study itself, even just the abstract, is beyond my expertise to criticize, except for the fact that it's a study of other studies, concluding that the original researchers were wrong. It seems to me to be important but not the final word either way.

Yeah, I'm skeptical of nutrition science, and of the Guardian too.

But here they have long quotes from the actual experts saying how sure they are and how well-studied this area is, along with some real numbers about how large the risk is (i.e. trivial at an individual level for modest drinkers). It's well above average science reporting, on an above-average nutrition finding.

So I believe this one.

I used to be a contrarian. But these days I try to believe the consensus of experts, or if the experts disagree, I try not to have an opinion. Even if the experts are wrong 30% of the time, their guess is better than my guess.

I make an exception for fields known to be corrupt (i.e. social psychology), and fields where I have personal expertise and can detect bullshit (i.e. some kinds of software engineering).

Sometimes I forget this rule and make assertions I can't defend, like "the minimum wage hurts poor people". I'm trying to stop doing that -- if economists are still arguing over this, I should be unsure.

[KyleSchuant]

I had a different motivation for reducing my drinking. I had a child.

Much more than any talk of cancer or ads about car crashes, this affected me, I don't know why.

[KyleSchuant]

"You know as you get older you're going to hurt, everybody does. Something hurts on me all the time and it's just.. you learn to ignore it. Just like tinnitus. You learn to ignore it. you know. That kind of thing. I know I can't tell you what to do about it. If it's interfering with your ability to get to sleep it's going to have to be dealt with somehow. I have found that a combination of naproxen, Tylenol, and alcohol works pretty good to get you to sleep. And you know I'm not recommending alcoholism as the cure for this, but you know if you have a drink before you go to bed you'll probably sleep better."

- Rip - https://startingstrength.com/video/q-a- ... th-radio-8

[Cinic]

One of the big benefits to my quitting drinking was the vast improvement in sleep.

[nkupianist]

One of the big benefits to my quitting drinking was the vast improvement in sleep.

Same. That's the insidious thing about alcohol abuse as a sleep aid. It's easy to get into a vicious cycle where you use alcohol to shut your brain off, you're tired the next day from bad sleep, alcohol still seems like a great idea the following night to wind down, which digs the sleep quality debt further, which makes you want more alcohol, etc. By the time you realize that alcohol's doing you no great favors and is being needed in greater doses to achieve the same sedative effect 3 beers used to achieve, you're psychologically hooked on the routine. I'm sure this isn't the case for everyone, but it was for myself.

I was fortunate to break the cycle before alcohol abuse bled over into the workweek or had any implications besides some rough weekend mornings. I was definitely nearing the inflection point where consumption and related consequences begin to escalate.

[Cinic]

At my worst, I would fall asleep (pass out) around 10 or 10:30 mostly drunk. Then wake up at 3 or 4 when the booze wore off. Wide awake, anxiety ridden. Toss and turn for an hour or two, fall back to an hour of actual sleep until alarm went off and I felt like shit.

It's been 5+ years and I'm still amazed at how good the sleep is. I hardly even need an alarm anymore as I just wake up on time rested. My biggest sleep problem these days is getting caught up in a stupid movie and not going to bed on time.

[TimF]

I had a different motivation for reducing my drinking. I had a child.

Much more than any talk of cancer or ads about car crashes, this affected me, I don't know why.

Damn, that is powerful. On a lot of levels beyond just drinking.

[KyleSchuant]

It is. And yes, it had that effect on me.

I also think how I remember a few things from my childhood my parents did or said - a few out of thousands. I'd like to think I remember those because they're representative of the general trends, but I don't know. Maybe that nice or nasty thing was the one nice or nasty thing they said in ten years? I honestly don't know.

It's one of the things which made me very conscious of my responsibility as an example in so many ways. It's easy to get neurotic about it, but...