Transpeople in athletics

[Philbert]

https://www.usapowerlifting.com/ramsey- ... minnesota/

At the risk of being rather ignorant of this whole matter... is the transgender individual who was the centre of this whole USAPL lawsuit fiasco... also a minnesota resident? If so, then that seems like such a massive over correction it is laughable. "You are now allowed to lift in the USAPL in minnesota.. you are also not able to lift in the USAPL in minnesota"

Just googled it. Quite the "own goal" because the plaintiff, who could have lifted had the competition been held in Minnesota (USAPL has a Minnesota exception to accommodate the plaintiff) will now be unable to compete as the competition will be held under normal rules in another jurisdiction, possibly also with better weather.

[mouse]

https://www.usapowerlifting.com/ramsey- ... minnesota/

At the risk of being rather ignorant of this whole matter... is the transgender individual who was the centre of this whole USAPL lawsuit fiasco... also a minnesota resident? If so, then that seems like such a massive over correction it is laughable. "You are now allowed to lift in the USAPL in minnesota.. you are also not able to lift in the USAPL in minnesota"

Just googled it. Quite the "own goal" because the plaintiff, who could have lifted had the competition been held in Minnesota (USAPL has a Minnesota exception to accommodate the plaintiff) will now be unable to compete as the competition will be held under normal rules in another jurisdiction, possibly also with better weather.

[zappey1]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

[hector]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I’m interested in your (and anyone’s) take.

Why is it an issue?

People who don’t want to compete against Trans can start their own league.
People who don’t care enough to start their own league can compete with Trans.

[BostonRugger]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I’m interested in your (and anyone’s) take.

Why is it an issue?

People who don’t want to compete against Trans can start their own league.
People who don’t care enough to start their own league can compete with Trans.

To my mind, one of the duties of an athletic league is to maintain fairness under the rules of competition. For women to be competitive in sports, separate leagues have to be created and they have to exclude men. That the women should have to form a new league due to this issue means the existing league abandoned its own raison d'etre.

[hector]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I’m interested in your (and anyone’s) take.

Why is it an issue?

People who don’t want to compete against Trans can start their own league.
People who don’t care enough to start their own league can compete with Trans.

To my mind, one of the duties of an athletic league is to maintain fairness under the rules of competition. For women to be competitive in sports, separate leagues have to be created and they have to exclude men. That the women should have to form a new league due to this issue means the existing league abandoned its own raison d'etre.

I agree with you on the fair part.
These leagues have decided it’s fair for trans to compete, right?
Is it fair?
To my mind, no.
If I were a serious competitor who wanted fair competitor then I (a non-PED user) wouldn’t compete in a league where my competition was on PEDs.
In some of these sports the hormonal advantage a PED user would hold over me is similar to the advantage an XY-chromosome-bearer would hold over a regular female. So just as I would have to either change rules or make a new league, females might have to do the same.

[zappey1]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I’m interested in your (and anyone’s) take.

Why is it an issue?

People who don’t want to compete against Trans can start their own league.
People who don’t care enough to start their own league can compete with Trans.

To my mind, one of the duties of an athletic league is to maintain fairness under the rules of competition. For women to be competitive in sports, separate leagues have to be created and they have to exclude men. That the women should have to form a new league due to this issue means the existing league abandoned its own raison d'etre.

I agree with you on the fair part.
These leagues have decided it’s fair for trans to compete, right?
Is it fair?
To my mind, no.
If I were a serious competitor who wanted fair competitor then I (a non-PED user) wouldn’t compete in a league where my competition was on PEDs.
In some of these sports the hormonal advantage a PED user would hold over me is similar to the advantage an XY-chromosome-bearer would hold over a regular female. So just as I would have to either change rules or make a new league, females might have to do the same.

Your missing the point. WOMEN did do this 50+years ago. Now Trans are coming into their league that was started for them. You think the answer is to start ANOTHER woman's category/league?

How about they start their own trans league or open division instead of dumping on women?

Here is another example:

British Rowing ready to defy world governing body over transgender rules
Members asked whether women's category should be restricted only to athletes declared female at birth in defiance of World Rowing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rowing/2023 ... der-rules/
It never stops here is the history of title IX
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/spor ... s%20sports.

[hector]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I’m interested in your (and anyone’s) take.

Why is it an issue?

People who don’t want to compete against Trans can start their own league.
People who don’t care enough to start their own league can compete with Trans.

To my mind, one of the duties of an athletic league is to maintain fairness under the rules of competition. For women to be competitive in sports, separate leagues have to be created and they have to exclude men. That the women should have to form a new league due to this issue means the existing league abandoned its own raison d'etre.

I agree with you on the fair part.
These leagues have decided it’s fair for trans to compete, right?
Is it fair?
To my mind, no.
If I were a serious competitor who wanted fair competitor then I (a non-PED user) wouldn’t compete in a league where my competition was on PEDs.
In some of these sports the hormonal advantage a PED user would hold over me is similar to the advantage an XY-chromosome-bearer would hold over a regular female. So just as I would have to either change rules or make a new league, females might have to do the same.

Your missing the point. WOMEN did do this 50+years ago. Now Trans are coming into their league that was started for them. You think the answer is to start ANOTHER woman's category/league?

How about they start their own trans league or open division instead of dumping on women?

Here is another example:

British Rowing ready to defy world governing body over transgender rules
Members asked whether women's category should be restricted only to athletes declared female at birth in defiance of World Rowing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rowing/2023 ... der-rules/
It never stops here is the history of title IX
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/spor ... s%20sports.

Yes.
I think if you can’t change the league you’re in from the inside, and you want a different type of competition, then it is incumbent upon you to start your own league.
If you can change your league from within, go for it.

In the example you cite it looks like they’re going for one of the options I proposed.

What point am I missing? If trans have convinced your league to adjust competition rules in a way you don’t like it brings you back to my original 2 options: either get better at changing rules than the Trans and their adherents, or else start a league of your own.

[zappey1]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I’m interested in your (and anyone’s) take.

Why is it an issue?

People who don’t want to compete against Trans can start their own league.
People who don’t care enough to start their own league can compete with Trans.

To my mind, one of the duties of an athletic league is to maintain fairness under the rules of competition. For women to be competitive in sports, separate leagues have to be created and they have to exclude men. That the women should have to form a new league due to this issue means the existing league abandoned its own raison d'etre.

I agree with you on the fair part.
These leagues have decided it’s fair for trans to compete, right?
Is it fair?
To my mind, no.
If I were a serious competitor who wanted fair competitor then I (a non-PED user) wouldn’t compete in a league where my competition was on PEDs.
In some of these sports the hormonal advantage a PED user would hold over me is similar to the advantage an XY-chromosome-bearer would hold over a regular female. So just as I would have to either change rules or make a new league, females might have to do the same.

Your missing the point. WOMEN did do this 50+years ago. Now Trans are coming into their league that was started for them. You think the answer is to start ANOTHER woman's category/league?

How about they start their own trans league or open division instead of dumping on women?

Here is another example:

British Rowing ready to defy world governing body over transgender rules
Members asked whether women's category should be restricted only to athletes declared female at birth in defiance of World Rowing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rowing/2023 ... der-rules/
It never stops here is the history of title IX
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/spor ... s%20sports.

Yes.
I think if you can’t change the league you’re in from the inside, and you want a different type of competition, then it is incumbent upon you to start your own league.
If you can change your league from within, go for it.

In the example you cite it looks like they’re going for one of the options I proposed.

What point am I missing? If trans have convinced your league to adjust competition rules in a way you don’t like it brings you back to my original 2 options: either get better at changing rules than the Trans and their adherents, or else start a league of your own.

All the leagues are to scared to stand up and say that it is not a fair coemption (and many of the athletes). They are worried they will get labeled as transphobic and be canceled.

Women's sports mainly exist thanks to that title IX (they would not make money on their own). Now trans are taking them over and being allowed to because everyone is scared of being canceled when they speak out

[hector]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I’m interested in your (and anyone’s) take.

Why is it an issue?

People who don’t want to compete against Trans can start their own league.
People who don’t care enough to start their own league can compete with Trans.

To my mind, one of the duties of an athletic league is to maintain fairness under the rules of competition. For women to be competitive in sports, separate leagues have to be created and they have to exclude men. That the women should have to form a new league due to this issue means the existing league abandoned its own raison d'etre.

I agree with you on the fair part.
These leagues have decided it’s fair for trans to compete, right?
Is it fair?
To my mind, no.
If I were a serious competitor who wanted fair competitor then I (a non-PED user) wouldn’t compete in a league where my competition was on PEDs.
In some of these sports the hormonal advantage a PED user would hold over me is similar to the advantage an XY-chromosome-bearer would hold over a regular female. So just as I would have to either change rules or make a new league, females might have to do the same.

Your missing the point. WOMEN did do this 50+years ago. Now Trans are coming into their league that was started for them. You think the answer is to start ANOTHER woman's category/league?

How about they start their own trans league or open division instead of dumping on women?

Here is another example:

British Rowing ready to defy world governing body over transgender rules
Members asked whether women's category should be restricted only to athletes declared female at birth in defiance of World Rowing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rowing/2023 ... der-rules/
It never stops here is the history of title IX
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/spor ... s%20sports.

Yes.
I think if you can’t change the league you’re in from the inside, and you want a different type of competition, then it is incumbent upon you to start your own league.
If you can change your league from within, go for it.

In the example you cite it looks like they’re going for one of the options I proposed.

What point am I missing? If trans have convinced your league to adjust competition rules in a way you don’t like it brings you back to my original 2 options: either get better at changing rules than the Trans and their adherents, or else start a league of your own.

All the leagues are to scared to stand up and say that it is not a fair coemption (and many of the athletes). They are worried they will get labeled as transphobic and be canceled.

Women's sports mainly exist thanks to that title IX (they would not make money on their own). Now trans are taking them over and being allowed to because everyone is scared of being canceled when they speak out

All of them?
Is it that dire?
Didn’t the world track organization recently come out, wait, here’s the quote:

World Athletics (WA), the governing body for track and field and other running competitions, announced last month that transgender women who went through male puberty can no longer compete in women's events at international competitions. The policy took effect on 31 March.

Orgs, demonstrably, have the ability to exclude trans.
Individuals also have the ability to start their own sports clubs.

[dw]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I’m interested in your (and anyone’s) take.

Why is it an issue?

People who don’t want to compete against Trans can start their own league.
People who don’t care enough to start their own league can compete with Trans.

To my mind, one of the duties of an athletic league is to maintain fairness under the rules of competition. For women to be competitive in sports, separate leagues have to be created and they have to exclude men. That the women should have to form a new league due to this issue means the existing league abandoned its own raison d'etre.

I agree with you on the fair part.
These leagues have decided it’s fair for trans to compete, right?
Is it fair?
To my mind, no.
If I were a serious competitor who wanted fair competitor then I (a non-PED user) wouldn’t compete in a league where my competition was on PEDs.
In some of these sports the hormonal advantage a PED user would hold over me is similar to the advantage an XY-chromosome-bearer would hold over a regular female. So just as I would have to either change rules or make a new league, females might have to do the same.

Your missing the point. WOMEN did do this 50+years ago. Now Trans are coming into their league that was started for them. You think the answer is to start ANOTHER woman's category/league?

How about they start their own trans league or open division instead of dumping on women?

Here is another example:

British Rowing ready to defy world governing body over transgender rules
Members asked whether women's category should be restricted only to athletes declared female at birth in defiance of World Rowing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rowing/2023 ... der-rules/
It never stops here is the history of title IX
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/spor ... s%20sports.

Yes.
I think if you can’t change the league you’re in from the inside, and you want a different type of competition, then it is incumbent upon you to start your own league.
If you can change your league from within, go for it.

In the example you cite it looks like they’re going for one of the options I proposed.

What point am I missing? If trans have convinced your league to adjust competition rules in a way you don’t like it brings you back to my original 2 options: either get better at changing rules than the Trans and their adherents, or else start a league of your own.

The distinction is between whether they have to do something and whether they should have to do that something.

[hector]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I’m interested in your (and anyone’s) take.

Why is it an issue?

People who don’t want to compete against Trans can start their own league.
People who don’t care enough to start their own league can compete with Trans.

To my mind, one of the duties of an athletic league is to maintain fairness under the rules of competition. For women to be competitive in sports, separate leagues have to be created and they have to exclude men. That the women should have to form a new league due to this issue means the existing league abandoned its own raison d'etre.

I agree with you on the fair part.
These leagues have decided it’s fair for trans to compete, right?
Is it fair?
To my mind, no.
If I were a serious competitor who wanted fair competitor then I (a non-PED user) wouldn’t compete in a league where my competition was on PEDs.
In some of these sports the hormonal advantage a PED user would hold over me is similar to the advantage an XY-chromosome-bearer would hold over a regular female. So just as I would have to either change rules or make a new league, females might have to do the same.

Your missing the point. WOMEN did do this 50+years ago. Now Trans are coming into their league that was started for them. You think the answer is to start ANOTHER woman's category/league?

How about they start their own trans league or open division instead of dumping on women?

Here is another example:

British Rowing ready to defy world governing body over transgender rules
Members asked whether women's category should be restricted only to athletes declared female at birth in defiance of World Rowing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rowing/2023 ... der-rules/
It never stops here is the history of title IX
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/spor ... s%20sports.

Yes.
I think if you can’t change the league you’re in from the inside, and you want a different type of competition, then it is incumbent upon you to start your own league.
If you can change your league from within, go for it.

In the example you cite it looks like they’re going for one of the options I proposed.

What point am I missing? If trans have convinced your league to adjust competition rules in a way you don’t like it brings you back to my original 2 options: either get better at changing rules than the Trans and their adherents, or else start a league of your own.

The distinction is between whether they have to do something and whether they should have to do that something.

“Have” and “should” are easy for us to interpret differently and have unproductive arguments over. (Not disagreeing with you, just trying to not go down that road.)

I would argue that you cannot count on stagnation. Sports will change, sports rules will change, populations that compete will change, etc.

If the current environment no longer suits you, then it’s up to you to personally adapt, to change the environment, or to create/find-a-new environment.

Which is why it breaks down to (1) change the rules of your league, or, (2) start a new league.

[zappey1]

Which is why it breaks down to (1) change the rules of your league, or, (2) start a new league.

So let me get your argument strait.

You want CIS woman to leave Woman sports on pretty much all levels (High school, college, Olympics, international) and form their own leagues to compete with the woman's leagues that were established for them in the first place that now allow trans?

Or spend years dealing with abuse being canceled and sometimes assaulted to change the rules so trans can not compete against them. Which most people would say should not have been a thing in the first place.

This is not 1 small power lifting federation this is a systemic issue across multiple levels. I do agree the best answer might be for CIS woman to stop participating but it is going to cost them millions? billions? of lost earnings/sponsorships before it changes.

It is messed up that this issue has gone this far this long. I'm glad that it is starting to swing back to common sense but it is going to be along path back to CIS woman being able to compete without trans essentially stealing all their records and spotlights. Which is why Title IX
was passed in the first place (so woman could have the same opportunities as men in sports).

I think Open divisions will be coming to most sports very soon

[dw]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I’m interested in your (and anyone’s) take.

Why is it an issue?

People who don’t want to compete against Trans can start their own league.
People who don’t care enough to start their own league can compete with Trans.

To my mind, one of the duties of an athletic league is to maintain fairness under the rules of competition. For women to be competitive in sports, separate leagues have to be created and they have to exclude men. That the women should have to form a new league due to this issue means the existing league abandoned its own raison d'etre.

I agree with you on the fair part.
These leagues have decided it’s fair for trans to compete, right?
Is it fair?
To my mind, no.
If I were a serious competitor who wanted fair competitor then I (a non-PED user) wouldn’t compete in a league where my competition was on PEDs.
In some of these sports the hormonal advantage a PED user would hold over me is similar to the advantage an XY-chromosome-bearer would hold over a regular female. So just as I would have to either change rules or make a new league, females might have to do the same.

Your missing the point. WOMEN did do this 50+years ago. Now Trans are coming into their league that was started for them. You think the answer is to start ANOTHER woman's category/league?

How about they start their own trans league or open division instead of dumping on women?

Here is another example:

British Rowing ready to defy world governing body over transgender rules
Members asked whether women's category should be restricted only to athletes declared female at birth in defiance of World Rowing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rowing/2023 ... der-rules/
It never stops here is the history of title IX
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/spor ... s%20sports.

Yes.
I think if you can’t change the league you’re in from the inside, and you want a different type of competition, then it is incumbent upon you to start your own league.
If you can change your league from within, go for it.

In the example you cite it looks like they’re going for one of the options I proposed.

What point am I missing? If trans have convinced your league to adjust competition rules in a way you don’t like it brings you back to my original 2 options: either get better at changing rules than the Trans and their adherents, or else start a league of your own.

The distinction is between whether they have to do something and whether they should have to do that something.

“Have” and “should” are easy for us to interpret differently and have unproductive arguments over. (Not disagreeing with you, just trying to not go down that road.)

I would argue that you cannot count on stagnation. Sports will change, sports rules will change, populations that compete will change, etc.

If the current environment no longer suits you, then it’s up to you to personally adapt, to change the environment, or to create/find-a-new environment.

Which is why it breaks down to (1) change the rules of your league, or, (2) start a new league.

I think all of these complaints are an effort to get the rules changed. But even if they weren't you can complain about something without the expectation of fixing it.

[hector]

I have to post this:

This year’s running of the Tour of the Gila marked the first time in the event’s 36-year history that equal prize money had been offered, with a total purse of $35,350 (£28,145) in both the men’s and women’s races. Killips, who only took up cycling in 2019 before starting on hormone replacement therapy, earned almost £8,000 for finishing top of the women's general classification, plus an £800 bonus as "Queen of the Mountains".

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-co ... 46095.html

Literally crazy to allow this and it is sad for woman that trained their whole lives! The article then goes on to talk about how they are worried about the "Woman's" Olympics. No shit you think that is going to be an issue?

Forgive me if this has been brought up before. I’m interested in your (and anyone’s) take.

Why is it an issue?

People who don’t want to compete against Trans can start their own league.
People who don’t care enough to start their own league can compete with Trans.

To my mind, one of the duties of an athletic league is to maintain fairness under the rules of competition. For women to be competitive in sports, separate leagues have to be created and they have to exclude men. That the women should have to form a new league due to this issue means the existing league abandoned its own raison d'etre.

I agree with you on the fair part.
These leagues have decided it’s fair for trans to compete, right?
Is it fair?
To my mind, no.
If I were a serious competitor who wanted fair competitor then I (a non-PED user) wouldn’t compete in a league where my competition was on PEDs.
In some of these sports the hormonal advantage a PED user would hold over me is similar to the advantage an XY-chromosome-bearer would hold over a regular female. So just as I would have to either change rules or make a new league, females might have to do the same.

Your missing the point. WOMEN did do this 50+years ago. Now Trans are coming into their league that was started for them. You think the answer is to start ANOTHER woman's category/league?

How about they start their own trans league or open division instead of dumping on women?

Here is another example:

British Rowing ready to defy world governing body over transgender rules
Members asked whether women's category should be restricted only to athletes declared female at birth in defiance of World Rowing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rowing/2023 ... der-rules/
It never stops here is the history of title IX
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/28/spor ... s%20sports.

Yes.
I think if you can’t change the league you’re in from the inside, and you want a different type of competition, then it is incumbent upon you to start your own league.
If you can change your league from within, go for it.

In the example you cite it looks like they’re going for one of the options I proposed.

What point am I missing? If trans have convinced your league to adjust competition rules in a way you don’t like it brings you back to my original 2 options: either get better at changing rules than the Trans and their adherents, or else start a league of your own.

The distinction is between whether they have to do something and whether they should have to do that something.

“Have” and “should” are easy for us to interpret differently and have unproductive arguments over. (Not disagreeing with you, just trying to not go down that road.)

I would argue that you cannot count on stagnation. Sports will change, sports rules will change, populations that compete will change, etc.

If the current environment no longer suits you, then it’s up to you to personally adapt, to change the environment, or to create/find-a-new environment.

Which is why it breaks down to (1) change the rules of your league, or, (2) start a new league.

I think all of these complaints are an effort to get the rules changed. But even if they weren't you can complain about something without the expectation of fixing it.

Agreed.

[hector]

Which is why it breaks down to (1) change the rules of your league, or, (2) start a new league.

So let me get your argument strait.

You want CIS woman to leave Woman sports on pretty much all levels (High school, college, Olympics, international) and form their own leagues to compete with the woman's leagues that were established for them in the first place that now allow trans?

Or spend years dealing with abuse being canceled and sometimes assaulted to change the rules so trans can not compete against them. Which most people would say should not have been a thing in the first place.

This is not 1 small power lifting federation this is a systemic issue across multiple levels. I do agree the best answer might be for CIS woman to stop participating but it is going to cost them millions? billions? of lost earnings/sponsorships before it changes.

It is messed up that this issue has gone this far this long. I'm glad that it is starting to swing back to common sense but it is going to be along path back to CIS woman being able to compete without trans essentially stealing all their records and spotlights. Which is why Title IX
was passed in the first place (so woman could have the same opportunities as men in sports).

I think Open divisions will be coming to most sports very soon

If nobody speaks out or takes action, how will change occur?

If competitors prioritize “not being cancelled” over fair competition then should they be surprised when they remain non-cancelled and stuck with unfair competition?

I don’t “want” any female or trans to do anything. But if women want a women only league then speaking up, taking action, and pointing out the insanity of their situation is infinitely more likely to succeed than staying silent and not taking action.

Recently that female surfer said she wouldn’t compete against men. World track said they won’t have trans compete against female. There is hope. There are cultural corrective mechanisms that can kick in. I don’t think exile and cancellation are the only outcomes for women or leagues that take action on this front.

[hector]

Thinking outside the box:

Women champions displaced by Trans athletes should start identifying as child athletes and again dominate. Like when Kramer took Karate.

[JonA]

start a league of your own.

Because this has become illegal in some jurisdictions.

In MN, it is illegal to operate a women's sports league that excludes transathletes from competing.

(See the USAPL court case mentioned above)

[hector]

start a league of your own.

Because this has become illegal in some jurisdictions.

In MN, it is illegal to operate a women's sports league that excludes transathletes from competing.

(See the USAPL court case mentioned above)

Quick thoughts. Yes, I sound hyperbolic.

(1) Court could be the venue to take a stand. Has been for other causes dealing with other inane laws.

(2) Will any elected officials be involved in the enforcement of these laws? Yes? Good! Force them to act on their principles and allow voters to see exactly who they’ve installed in office. Will sworn officers of the law actually execute this nonsense? Good. Again, a chance to see who they truly are and what your tax dollars are truly funding. No to the politicians and cops? They refuse to actually enforce the laws? Good, but for other reasons.
If some professional politician wearing a suit, along with armed police officers of the state, want to spend their Saturday taking away a first place medal from a female via force then let them have at it.
Make these fuckers show their true colors!!!!
(Will probably choose a less ostentatious manner to enforce the law, but effect will be similar.)

(3) If the people who rob you of taxes every year and who force you to live by their laws do not act in a manner you can abide then leave. Go to a different state. Yes, moving is a bitch. I’ve done it many times. But, at some point, it makes sense. If your state is barreling down a slope to absurdity then don’t pretend the journey is over, that more stupid shit isn’t on the way.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

After a year or so of not posting...where are the MTF SportsPeople who are winning...and are allowed to win... at the highest level?