Transpeople in athletics

[hsilman]

Then, if you are truly being honest with yourself, then this "argument" will eventually devolve into Rip's argument about one "Open" class for everything. (And also, just let there be unlimited steroid use then)

trans people are like, 1% of the population or something. trans elite athletes must be like, what, .001%?

So they are elite. They may win competitions (may, it's not like a predetermined conclusion as shown by Mattie etc) but so what? They are the best women, ok? What's the problem? Will there be a rash of hundreds of thousands of men "self-identifying" as women to win powerlifting competitions?

[heidikay]

Actually, there are quite a few:
https://savewomenssports.com/trans-athletes

Also if it's unfair, it doesn't matter if there aren't that many (which there are). It's still unfair. Trans women aren't female -- it's female sports.

[heidikay]

Also, if you are bringing up the whole issue of what a "woman" is, why don't you tell me how a transwoman is like me, a woman? How are they more like me than a male (the sex they were born)?

[Stenson]

trans people are like, 1% of the population or something. trans elite athletes must be like, what, .001%?

Trans people are 0.6% of the US population. That means about 0.3% of the population is MtF transgender. But I suppose it's just pure coincidence that such a tiny percentage of the population has rose to the top of female athletic competition.

[omaniphil]

Also, if you are bringing up the whole issue of what a "woman" is, why don't you tell me how a transwoman is like me, a woman? How are they more like me than a male (the sex they were born)?

I find there's something oddly patriarchal about a biological man who says, actually, now I'm a woman.

[Hanley]

They may win competitions (may, it's not like a predetermined conclusion as shown by Mattie etc)

Wait. What?

[Hanley]

Will there be a rash of hundreds of thousands of men "self-identifying" as women

The NCAA is pretty fucking strict about gender segregation...and I suspect they'll maintain this segregation...but if self-identification is the threshold requirement for gender identification, yeah, collegiate female sports are done.

Also, if self-identification of gender becomes an accepted standard, you'll probably get a bunch of willfull assholes like me who decide to become elite females and nonchalantly break world records (73 meters with a 600gram javelin...no problem, even at 41).

[DoctorWho]

Will there be a rash of hundreds of thousands of men "self-identifying" as women

The NCAA is pretty fucking strict about gender segregation...and I suspect they'll maintain this segregation...but if self-identification is the threshold requirement for gender identification, yeah, collegiate female sports are done.

Also, if self-identification of gender becomes an accepted standard, you'll probably get a bunch of willfull assholes like me who decide to become elite females and nonchalantly break world records (73 meters with a 600gram javelin...no problem, even at 41).

Hello Ms. Hanley, we have a scholarship waiting for you on the women's track and field team at Elite U.

In freestyle wrestling, slams are legal. Lift a guy off his feet and he is yours to drill into the mat. Getting this wrong is dangerous and bad for the sport.

[Cody]

Also, if self-identification of gender becomes an accepted standard, you'll probably get a bunch of willfull assholes like me who decide to become elite females and nonchalantly break world records (73 meters with a 600gram javelin...no problem, even at 41).

As I explained in another thread, if testosterone limits and self identification are the threshold, any regular old low-t male could dominate female sports. I met the IOC criteria with room to spare, and could have immediately smashed all the women's unlimited weight class records by a wide margin, taking them from a female that outweighs me by about 100 lbs.

Totally fair.

Hello Ms. Hanley, we have a scholarship waiting for you on the women's track and field team at Elite U.

In freestyle wrestling, slams are legal. Lift a guy off his feet and he is yours to drill into the mat. Getting this wrong is dangerous and bad for the sport.

This is the heart of the issue here. As a father of two daughters, both of these issues matter to me quite a bit.

Anyone who supports men competing as women is being willfully ignorant of the reality of the situation. Anyone who thinks they have the right to compete in female athletics when they aren't female is selfish.

Trans people are 0.6% of the US population. That means about 0.3% of the population is MtF transgender. But I suppose it's just pure coincidence that such a tiny percentage of the population has rose to the top of female athletic competition.

Boom.

why? Are transwomen not women?

my premise is that being trans is an athletic advantage(for transwomen) just like being born with more type 2 muscle fibers or whatever.

Correct, trans-women AREN'T women. That's why there's a prefix in there. Your premise is absolutely ridiculous. Being trans is a competitive advantage because they're men, it's that simple.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

It'll b interesting to see where we are on this in 20-years or so, at least in terms of having a much larger bank of data to draw upon...

[DoctorWho]

why? Are transwomen not women?

my premise is that being trans is an athletic advantage(for transwomen) just like being born with more type 2 muscle fibers or whatever.

Correct, trans-women AREN'T women. That's why there's a prefix in there. Your premise is absolutely ridiculous. Being trans is a competitive advantage because they're men, it's that simple.

To me, "aren't transwomen 'real women'" is an argument by slogan. Like "abortion kills babies" and "keep laws off my body". It obscures more than anything.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

To me, "aren't transwomen 'real women'" is an argument by slogan. Like "abortion kills babies" and "keep laws off my body". It obscures more than anything.

I think it can certainly be used as an "Argument by Slogan" but it is still a question that begs a conversation, so if it is being used in good faith it can still be valuable.

Shrugs.

[weisgarber]

Trans people are 0.6% of the US population. That means about 0.3% of the population is MtF transgender. But I suppose it's just pure coincidence that such a tiny percentage of the population has rose to the top of female athletic competition.

I think this number is high. It's derived from a study by the Williams Institute, which is an LBGT advocacy group in California. I don't find them to be a particularly unbiased source of information. It's sort of like using Fox News to prove that liberals are nutjobs.

Worldwide estimates over the past two decades have ranged anywhere from 1 in 500,000 to 1 in 2,500. I don't think anyone has a clue what the true numbers are.

[Hanley]

I met the IOC criteria with room to spare

Embrace the reality of being the new class of elite female.

You are the best of women, ok?

[Allentown]

@Cody and @Hanley
Do it. Go compete as women. Get your names in the record books. I support you 100%.

[Hanley]

@Cody and @Hanley
Do it. Go compete as women. Get your names in the record books. I support you 100%.

Thank you

#justlikeheidi

[Allentown]

*Note- in the event that either of you man up and actually compete as women, and a popular internet personality finds this forum and my post and targets me for harassment, I reserve the right to say I was being sarcastic and was trying to make a point.

[mbasic]

@Cody and @Hanley
Do it. Go compete as women. Get your names in the record books. I support you 100%.

Thank you

#justlikeheidi

start a go fund me

you are going to need that new 600 gram spear, and some (alot) pink spandex

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

I just wanna see Hanley throw 73m.

[LexAnderson]

So I haven't really weighed in on this topic yet. So *takes deep breath* I shall do so now.

I must state, that I don't care what you are or identify as because it doesn't really affect me. One can argue the points and validity of both sides all day long. Science is in fact, science and as such it does not care about your feelings or what you identify as. Also to compete in a federation or a meet is not a right, it is a privilege that you have. Federations are businesses, they aren't funded by government money, they are funded by money from their membership. Now this same membership who funds the federation does so by of course paying money, and by agreeing to comply with the rules and regulations of said federation. If you don't like their rules then find another federation, if there isn't one, then in our free market system you are free to go create a federation of your own. Federations are not denying these lifters the ability to compete, they are just saying that they cannot compete in these certain divisions/classes. Larry Wheels cannot compete in my weight class because he weighs more than I do, and it does not matter if he "identifies" as a 198lber.

At the cost of being inclusive to a minority of lifters a federation may sacrifice fairness to a majority of its members. To allow a lifer born as a male to compete in a women's division because he identifies as a woman will be unfair to the lifters who were born women, and competing as women.

Basically my take is that you follow the rules, or you don't compete. Then end.