Transpeople in athletics

[iamsmu]

[iamsmu]

Waiting for additional confirmation, but the word is that the USAPL wisely stuck with its current trans policy.



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Vice ran some propaganda last night. It's has 400 up votes and 5.6k downvotes.

Th exchange at minute 2 is hilarious. JC's only reply when asked it it is fair for biological males to complete in women's sports, is "Why not." Geez. Think through this shit. Just try.

[damufunman]

Just watched the spot at 2 minutes, and to her point, she followed the rules. The rules need to be right for the goal the federations are trying to achieve, which I believe is the main sticking point. I think it's a matter of deciding which moral direction they (the individual federations) want to go: inclusion by not telling trans women that they are not women by not allowing them to compete in the women's division (allowing them to compete against cis women, which so far seems to be unfair) "sport fairness" and not letting someone with a biological advantage (though I guess this is still not settled?) compete in the women's division.
Maybe the rules regarding time after transition and what constitutes transition need to be sussed out better, but so far it looks like a lot of these stories are centered around men who have taken steps to transition, but are still closer to the men's side of the spectrum, therefore blowing away the competition.

[BostonRugger]

*completely ignorant cycling take inbound*

Fixed gear racing now? FOH, hipsters.

[Wilhelm]

*completely ignorant cycling take inbound*

Fixed gear racing now? FOH, hipsters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_bicycle

[iamsmu]

*completely ignorant cycling take inbound*

Fixed gear racing now? FOH, hipsters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_bicycle

The perfect bike for polyamorous hipsters who do everything together:

[Wilhelm]

Point being, fixed gear racers are not necessarily hipsters.

Now if it's a bike messenger race, then for sure hipsters.

[Paul]

That vice thing

"No clear link between testosterone and performance" ...yet steroids are banned?? Why does the IOC have limits at all then?

They twisted that pretty hard... it's a spectrum, and there are different test levels (and sensitivities to test, which they conveniently did not address) yes, but trans athletes will always be on the high end of both.

If you gave a brother and sister the same extreme PED cycle, you could make the female very masculine and much bigger and stronger, but the male would be an absolute monster. There would be no competition.

This is causing problems already, and we don't even have high responders competing as trans yet! Matt/Janae Kroc anyone? So far it's been average to below average males competing as high level females.

Let's start testing lean body mass, vertical jumps, etc and see what that reveals about actual real world effects.

Or we just see how much we have to pay Kroc, who has been transitioning for years now, to compete. She says she's been actively trying to lose muscle to appear more feminine, but I bet she could set the records in several weight classes so high, only trans women would ever touch them again.

As for "following the rules": yes this needs to be officially addressed, as people love to be rule lawyers, but morally its obvious. If you have to be "technically" right, usually you're basically wrong.

People make it sound like its a minute thing, but even 1% is the difference between a gold medal and barely qualifying in some sports.

[iamsmu]

This is causing problems already, and we don't even have high responders competing as trans yet! Matt/Janae Kroc anyone? So far it's been average to below average males competing as high level females.

That would be interesting. Someone asked Kroc about transwomen in sports on Kroc's latest IG post. No answer there.



Totally fair. Why not?

[Paul]

@iamsmu, she said years ago, before this was a huge, messy, political issue, that she would never compete because "...it would be bad for the sport and bad for Transgender people..."

I'm sure she could dominate several sports, and it would be 100% by the rules...

[iamsmu]

iamsmu, she said years ago, before this was a huge, messy, political issue, that she would never compete because "...it would be bad for the sport and bad for Transgender people..."

I'm sure she could dominate several sports, and it would be 100% by the rules...

That's interesting and right. This is the most counter productive overreach imaginable for their cause.

[omaniphil]

iamsmu, she said years ago, before this was a huge, messy, political issue, that she would never compete because "...it would be bad for the sport and bad for Transgender people..."

I'm sure she could dominate several sports, and it would be 100% by the rules...

I don't think Kroc ever transitioned, and is not taking hormones of any sort (well, ones to suppress testosterone at the least), so I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be by the rules if Kroc tried to compete again.

[iamsmu]

I don't think Kroc ever transitioned, and is not taking hormones of any sort (well, ones to suppress testosterone at the least), so I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be by the rules if Kroc tried to compete again.

Whose rules? The proposed USAPL policy revision seems to have just required self-ID (like 19 US states at the HS level). They didn't even ask for t reduction. Kroc goes back and forth. Sometimes identifying as a woman. So, ya, Kroc could compete by those absurd rules.

[Paul]

I don't think Kroc ever transitioned, and is not taking hormones of any sort (well, ones to suppress testosterone at the least), so I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be by the rules if Kroc tried to compete again.

You have to define "transitioned" I guess. Even the IOC simply has a testosterone limit. Nothing else required.
I could compete with a full beard and a shirt that says "alpha male", reeking of toxic masculinity as long as my test was low enough.
I don't know 100% about her hormones and such, but she has complained in the past about how difficult it is to drop the muscle to feminine levels (another clue that this needs more thought). I assumed she may have tried hormones for that.

[iamsmu]

[aurelius]

This is discussing the general population and assuming normal genetic potential in regards to physical attributes. Question for those more knowledgeable:

Do transgender women that transition after undergoing puberty as a male maintain a significant physical advantage in terms of athletic speed, strength, and power to biological women?

[mgil]

This is discussing the general population and assuming normal genetic potential in regards to physical attributes. Question for those more knowledgeable:

Do transgender women that transition after undergoing puberty as a male maintain a significant physical advantage in terms of athletic speed, strength, and power to biological women?

What’s the timeframe?

[iamsmu]

This is discussing the general population and assuming normal genetic potential in regards to physical attributes. Question for those more knowledgeable:

Do transgender women that transition after undergoing puberty as a male maintain a significant physical advantage in terms of athletic speed, strength, and power to biological women?

There is not really any data on this. There are some anecdotes. The guy in the USAPL video speculates on the advantage that remains based on some examples.

The one study (by Harper) that some TRAs appeal to has a sample size of 6 and it compares performance after many years (18! in one case). Hence, it's garbage.

http://www.sportsci.org/2016/WCPASabstracts/ID-1699.pdf

Some discussion here:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/tw_in_sports/

I posted a link to something looking at muscle mass and fat changes earlier. I'll dig it up. It did not support the claim that LBM is reduced significantly.

And there are basic bodily changes that occur in puberty that simply can't be erased by hormones therapy.

At this point, the burden of proof lies squarely on the TRAs to show that there is no performance advantage.

And the TRAs lack any good arguments in favor of inclusion except for "Feel bad for us. Please . . ." But merely wishing real bad that you are a women, even if you are so delusional that you think you have a period (WTF - are hysterical pregnancies next?), gives us no good reason to let transwomen compete against women.

[aurelius]

What’s the timeframe?

I don't want to muddy the discussion with special cases: let us assume completion of adolescence into early adulthood. After 19-21 an individual began to transition.

And there are basic bodily changes that occur in puberty that simply can't be erased by hormones therapy.

This is my main question. The general knowledge and literature recognizes significant difference between men and women as they undergo and complete puberty.

My understanding is this includes bone structure and density, muscle mass and density, CNS differences, and so on. Not all of which are altered by modifying the hormonal profile of an individual later in life. To reduce the differences between biological males and females to a simple testosterone range seems to be missing the forest for the trees.

[iamsmu]

My understanding is this includes bone structure and density, muscle mass and density, CNS differences, and so on. Not all of which are altered by modifying the hormonal profile of an individual later in life. To reduce the differences between biological males and females to a simple testosterone range seems to be missing the forest for the trees.

Ya. I think I agree. It's the long term effects of high t-exposure in males that make for the performance advantage. Reducing t doesn't shrink skeletons, hands, make people shorter, . . .

The IOC style policies (t-reduction for 12 months) are not good for anyone. They end up excluding some women with DSDs that they shouldn't (since they aren't always androgen sensitive) and they are too permissive when it comes to post-pubescent males. . . . They are pretty much as cluster F.

Some of this stuff is documented, with lots of links here:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/biological ... fferences/