Transpeople in athletics

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

I'm kinda surprised - and heartened - at the 56/25/19 numbers.

[hector]

If we are all equal why,not,just Emilianate men’s sports and female sports, and trans sports?

Just have sports. Everyone gets a tryout. Best human makes the,team. Fair, and equal right?

I hope your kidding but in the US we have:
Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 is a federal law prohibiting gender discrimination in athletic programs at institutions that receive federal funds

For other countries IDK what they have

Not kidding at all. We are all equal. Right? How would “just sports” with no gender divisions be discrimination?

Look at it like a job. There’s no female departments and men departments. You just do your job. Sports is the same thing. It’s a job

By "discrimination" we mean we're disallowing certain classes of people from participating, right?

If we only have a single division in WL or Football then we're de facto discriminating against those who aren't biologically predisposed to getting strong. Which will be almost all women.

And that's why this discussion is intractable if the goal is zero discrimination. We're always discriminating, whether it is explicit (women's division) or unspoken ("open" which ends up selecting for men, like the all male NBA or NFL that in theory could allow women, but, in practice, have none.)

We need to be open about how, and why, we're discriminating.

But,my whole point is we’re not discriminating. Everyone gets a fair chance to try out. Meritocracy. Best man/woman/trans person for the job.

I’m kinda tongue in cheek here trying to pint out the craziness.

I agree with you on the craziness.

I think the craziness is a function of trying to not discriminate when, in actuality, we always discriminate. And our old way of discrimination, one that was so ingrained and that we were so comfortable with we imagined it wasn't discrimination, has a new light cast on it and has now shown itself to be discriminatory.

Sport rules are arbitrary. They will always favor some over others. Someone will get discriminated against.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

....or you could just give a Wild Card entry to the Lifter who "missed out" with Hubbard's inclusion.

I can't get the story to link, but it should be pretty easy to find.

[GlasgowJock]

Transgender woman beats cis woman in some MMA fight.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... debut.html

[zappey1]

I wonder when enough is going to be enough? When trans have every record in every woman's sport?
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lia-thom ... f7c6ac270b

[aurelius]

I wonder when enough is going to be enough? When trans have every record in every woman's sport?
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lia-thom ... f7c6ac270b

Honestly...It won't. XX chromosome individuals will have to en masse refuse to compete against XY chromosome individuals.

That statement leaves out odd ball chromosome individuals such as XXY, XYY, XO. Caster Semenya is an example. Caster Semenya has lived her entire life as a woman. She has not altered herself. She should compete with women.

Yet we live in a world where Caster Semenya is disqualified for competing and a transgender woman can compete.

[zappey1]

I wonder when enough is going to be enough? When trans have every record in every woman's sport?
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lia-thom ... f7c6ac270b

Honestly...It won't. XX chromosome individuals will have to en masse refuse to compete against XY chromosome individuals.

That statement leaves out odd ball chromosome individuals such as XXY, XYY, XO. Caster Semenya is an example. Caster Semenya has lived her entire life as a woman. She has not altered herself. She should compete with women.

Yet we live in a world where Caster Semenya is disqualified for competing and a transgender woman can compete.

Why don't they have a separate division for trans? That woman in the article broke the school record by over 30 seconds! Might be a good indication she has an unfair advantage.

100% agree XX woman will have to start boycotting and suing. But I have also seen them called bigots when they try to take these issues to court.

[aurelius]

Why don't they have a separate division for trans? That woman in the article broke the school record by over 30 seconds! Might be a good indication she has an unfair advantage.

Those of us that care about sports keep pointing at the inherent unfairness. The people for transgender inclusion in sports don't care about sports. 'Fair' competition is not important to them. It's like pointing out the sky is blue to someone arguing the grass is green.

[quikky]

Why don't they have a separate division for trans?

By creating a separate division for trans-women, or trans-men, you are implying they are not real women or men, respectively. This is considered highly unfashionable today, even transphobic. Most importantly: it is not inclusive. We must break down these artificial biological barriers and allow everyone to compete. Next we will need to remove age and weight divisions in various sports because those are ageist and sizeist, and cause feelings of exclusion and harm in younger and/or bigger individuals.

[zappey1]

Why don't they have a separate division for trans?

By creating a separate division for trans-women, or trans-men, you are implying they are not real women or men, respectively. This is considered highly unfashionable today, even transphobic. Most importantly: it is not inclusive. We must break down these artificial biological barriers and allow everyone to compete. Next we will need to remove age and weight divisions in various sports because those are ageist and sizeist, and cause feelings of exclusion and harm in younger and/or bigger individuals.

Sorry XX woman no scholarships/ Olympics for you.

I'm very concerned about what this will look like in the next Olympics. Teams are about to be stacked with trans people.

[aurelius]

I'm very concerned about what this will look like in the next Olympics. Teams are about to be stacked with trans people.

The IOC basically created this problem for everyone. They came up with a ridiculous testosterone standard and proclaimed that a transgender woman could compete if they have transitioned for 1-year. This opened the door to everything you are seeing now as it 'justified' the inclusion of transwomen in women sports. "If the IOC allows it, it must be fair."

[TimF]

The IOC just got rid of the testosterone standard and said that anyone can compete if they identify as a woman.

The new IOC Framework makes clear that no athlete has an inherent advantage & moves away from eligibility criteria focuses on testosterone levels, a practice that caused harmful & abusive practices such as invasive physical examinations & sex testing.

[aurelius]

The IOC just got rid of the testosterone standard and said that anyone can compete if they identify as a woman.

Regarding the testosterone standard: Good. Women like Caster Semenya were hurt by that rule.

I just don't even know where to begin with the 'identify as a woman' in regards to women's sports. The IOC, which is not the most progressive and enlightened group of individuals, has done lost its mind.

[mgil]

Why don't they have a separate division for trans? That woman in the article broke the school record by over 30 seconds! Might be a good indication she has an unfair advantage.

Those of us that care about sports keep pointing at the inherent unfairness. The people for transgender inclusion in sports don't care about sports. 'Fair' competition is not important to them. It's like pointing out the sky is blue to someone arguing the grass is green.

The selfishness of the athlete in question is mirrored in this quote from the article:

Thomas, who’s competing as a senior after the Ivy League canceled the previous season due to the pandemic, added: “Being trans has not affected my ability to do this sport and being able to continue is very rewarding.”

Sure, but how has competing as a transwoman athlete impacted those whom she is competing against? Do these non-trans female athletes feel inspired by her crushing a record by 38 seconds or do they feel demotivated that they simply cannot compete with someone born biologically male?

Modern society has already lost sight of why athletics exist in the first place as witnessed by the awful evolution of youth sports and the desire to win over that of building good citizens. My fear is that this could push that evolution further and effectively erode the reason Title IX came to be.

[aurelius]

Modern society has already lost sight of why athletics exist in the first place as witnessed by the awful evolution of youth sports and the desire to win over that of building good citizens. My fear is that this could push that evolution further and effectively erode the reason Title IX came to be.

Excellent point. Sports has been used by our society to develop positive traits and behaviors in regards to cooperation, competition, and working towards a common goal. Title IX brought this development to women. Something which is still unique to the US compared to the rest of the world. Allowing XY individuals compete with XX individuals threatens this opportunity for development Title IX created.

*You also make an excellent point regarding youth sports. Youth sports are dominated by early developers. Youth sports focused on 'winning at all costs' excludes late developers. A large portion of the US's youth are no longer getting the development through sports they once did. And we wonder why youths seem preoccupied with individual pursuits, lack the ability to cooperate and compete, and so on. They never developed 'team' traits required in sports.

[Oldandfat]

Uhhh did I miss something? Never heard of title 10. I did some Google fu. What does the US military code have to do with womens sports??

[TimF]

The IOC just got rid of the testosterone standard and said that anyone can compete if they identify as a woman.

Regarding the testosterone standard: Good. Women like Caster Semenya were hurt by that rule.

Agreed, it didn't make since as the testosterone limit was higher than any female could ever have.

[quikky]

Uhhh did I miss something? Never heard of title 10. I did some Google fu. What does the US military code have to do with womens sports??

Who's talking about title 10?

[Oldandfat]

Mgil and Aurelius

[Oldandfat]

Sorry. I’m on my iPhone e. Just zoomed in

Title 9. Lol. Didn’t see the I. Know it makes sense kinda. But how does allowing trans people to compete against women achieve this?