Transpeople in athletics

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iamsmu
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Transpeople in athletics

#1

Post by iamsmu » Sat May 04, 2019 4:58 pm

It's happening again:


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Transpeople in athletics

#2

Post by mgil » Sat May 04, 2019 5:07 pm

All future polite debate needs to be handled here.

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Transpeople in athletics

#3

Post by iamsmu » Sat May 04, 2019 5:09 pm

I'm not sure everyone here realizes the current degree of madness. I thought this was a parody account at first. Hell, I can't tell at this point.


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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#4

Post by mettkeks » Sat May 04, 2019 5:14 pm

Stunning and Brave!!!

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#5

Post by mgil » Sat May 04, 2019 5:16 pm

@iamsmu and others, I’m moving the topic here.

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#6

Post by iamsmu » Sat May 04, 2019 5:19 pm

mettkeks wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 5:14 pm Stunning and Brave!!!
Fearless! It's so brave to guilt your way into a competition and beat women.

Here's an account of one of the women who had her first meet ruined by the trans bullies and their allies who timed out all their lifts.

***JAyCee (above) is the person responsible for the protest. What a p-o-s.

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2019/04 ... ens-sport/
I was shocked when I arrived at the competition to find only 82 competitors out of the 120 that had signed up. This is unheard of, given the rising popularity of the sport. Fourteen of those women supported Cooper by “timing out” at the bar — standing in silence on the platform instead of lifting — while protesters gathered around them, clapped, and chanted, “Share the platform,” during the full minute lifters are allotted to attempt the lift.

In powerlifting we perform three lifts: the squat, bench, and deadlift. At competitions, we get three chances to attempt each lift. The best of each lift creates your lift total and is entered into a formula that considers age, weight, and sex to determine the winner. This gave the activists nine opportunities to protest, which most took full advantage of, and resulted in well over 90 minutes of disruptions. With two platforms of competitors lifting at the same time, the disturbance carried on regardless of whose turn it was. The unsportsmanlike behaviour ruined the event.

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#7

Post by iamsmu » Sat May 04, 2019 5:26 pm

Although this isn't a transgender issue, exactly, this is helpful for understanding the Semenya case. (I feel bad for Semenya, but I don't think the ruling was wrong.)

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/wh ... romosomes/

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#8

Post by iamsmu » Sat May 04, 2019 5:41 pm

It's a mystery how we got here. So we need to establish a larger context for how the trans bullies silence critics. To get started:


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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#9

Post by mettkeks » Sat May 04, 2019 5:57 pm

iamsmu wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 5:26 pm Although this isn't a transgender issue, exactly, this is helpful for understanding the Semenya case. (I feel bad for Semenya, but I don't think the ruling was wrong.)

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/wh ... romosomes/
That was a interesting article. She has two choices that enable her to compete. The way it was laid out in this article, she has the advantage that the female division is protected from and the allowed hormonal levels are still out of reach for women with XX chromosomes. I'd aggree with the ruling too.

To JayCee's case: Facts over Feelings. She might be a woman according to some definitions, but she is definitely not female and should not compete against females. Protest is allowed, but ruining an event for everyone else, especially when you are in the wrong, is a shit move.

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#10

Post by BigE » Sat May 04, 2019 6:08 pm

Rachel Dolezal

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#11

Post by alek » Sat May 04, 2019 6:22 pm

BigE wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 6:08 pmRachel Dolezal
That’s the name!! I’ve wondered how/why the two situations, transrace and transgender, are accepted, to the extent they are, differently. Are they not the same?

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#12

Post by mettkeks » Sat May 04, 2019 6:33 pm

alek wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 6:22 pm
BigE wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 6:08 pmRachel Dolezal
That’s the name!! I’ve wondered how/why the two situations, transrace and transgender, are accepted, to the extent they are, differently. Are they not the same?
Micheal Jackson.

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#13

Post by DoctorWho » Sat May 04, 2019 7:17 pm

Just so I understand this issue (because it will eventually come into wrestling, which is growing fast among women), trans advocates want trans-women to compete in the women's division to reinforce that they are truly women. Yes?

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#14

Post by heidikay » Sat May 04, 2019 7:25 pm

DoctorWho wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 7:17 pm Just so I understand this issue (because it will eventually come into wrestling, which is growing fast among women), trans advocates want trans-women to compete in the women's division to reinforce that they are truly women. Yes?
Yes transwomen want to compete in women's (female) divisions.

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Re: Something Rippened This Way Comes

#15

Post by cwd » Sat May 04, 2019 7:25 pm

mettkeks wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 4:19 pm
cwd wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 3:37 pm
mettkeks wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 2:32 pm
cwd wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 11:22 am (group competitors by 1rms)
That wouldn't be Fair at all.
What design you pick is not a matter of Fairness or moral right. It's just a market/branding/efficiency choice
It works very well the way it is right now. Leveling the playing field by grouping athletes with the same physical attributes into the same categories and place by performance.

Your proposal would group by performance and let small 155lb women who trained hard for years compete against 6'5'' 350lb DYEL in the same division. That's the exact opposite of what we perceive as fair. Nobody would compete because its pointless to compete in a competition that is unfair by design, so what design you pick is very well dependend on fairness.
Powerlifting does not classify people based on effort. I don't think you can fault my proposal for also not not considering "years of training so far".

Classifications are just excuses to hand out more than one trophy. Because more trophies means more fun.

What's so terrible about a trophy for "strongest lifter who never totaled over 1000 before"? Is it any more or less fair than "strongest women over 60" or "strongest lifter with Down's syndrome"?

(this is all bullshittery -- powerlifting will probably end up ruling out MtF athletes competing as women, and I really don't care if they do or don't)

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#16

Post by DoctorWho » Sat May 04, 2019 7:46 pm

heidikay wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 7:25 pm
DoctorWho wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 7:17 pm Just so I understand this issue (because it will eventually come into wrestling, which is growing fast among women), trans advocates want trans-women to compete in the women's division to reinforce that they are truly women. Yes?
Yes transwomen want to compete in women's (female) divisions.
That much I know, but I'm trying to understand why competing in the men's sports is so important. If I were a trans-activist, why would I focus on this controversial topic, rather than (say) getting trans-rights adopted by civil rights laws. A XY-chromosome just doesn't evoke sympathy when demolishing a women's record.

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#17

Post by Hanley » Sat May 04, 2019 8:52 pm

DoctorWho wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 7:46 pmA XY-chromosome just doesn't evoke sympathy when demolishing a women's record.
It's ingenious right-wing psyops.

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#18

Post by asdf » Sat May 04, 2019 10:15 pm

DoctorWho wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 7:17 pm it will eventually come into wrestling
Already arrived.

Transgender wrestler wins second Texas state girls’ championship

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#19

Post by KyleSchuant » Sat May 04, 2019 10:18 pm

heidikay wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 7:25 pm Yes transwomen want to compete in women's (female) divisions.
For context:
1. Cismen normally have a tesosterone level of anywhere from 5 to 40nmol/L.
2. Men who present to a doctor with 8-10nmol/L (exact number depends on country) or less are considered to have a medical problem and can get testosterone replacement therapy.
3. Ciswomen normally have testosterone of 0.24-2.4nmol/L, and are considered by WADA to have a positive doping test if they come in at 5+nmol/L.
4. Currently, WADA/IOC require transwomen to have <10nmol/L to compete. Which is to say, transwomen are permitted up to twice them T of ciswomen, and are permitted levels of T which many cismen have naturally.

Related, the intersexed Caster Semenya falls into this gap, apparently, between the maximum 5 which ciswomen are allowed, and the 10 which transwomen are allowed. The IAAF has resolved this by requiring Semenya to depress her natural tesosterone below 5, just as WADA requires transwomen to depress theirs below 10.

I can't tell if the World Medical Association is against transitioning or not.

"If physicians do apply these drugs they do break ethical codes. The basic ethical code of all medical practice is never do harm, and it is doing harm to a perfectly normal body with just a rather high level of testosterone by administering drugs to use this in order to make them [e]legible for women's sport under these regulations."


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-05/ ... l/11081084

The issue, to my mind, is that ciswomen and transwomen are being held to different standards. This is evidently because most transwomen transitioning as adults, and it takes several years to depress their testosterone below 5nmol/L, and not many people will keep training for years and years without being able to compete, so requiring <5 would effectively exclude most transwomen.

So the question is whether you err on the side of including people, or err on the side of fair competition. The IOC has chosen inclusivity, and the IAAF has chosen fair competition.

Of course the two issues are related, since if competition is unfair then you exclude some people, for example if the 9.9nmol/L transwoman is smashing all the 1.5nmol/L ciswomen, many ciswomen will lose interest - probably not at the top level of competition, but the adolescent women coming up through the ranks, so to speak.

I would resolve it by having the same standard for all women, both ciswomen and transwomen. If the transwomen can have 10nmol/L, then so should the ciswomen be allowed to - which is to say, we turn a blind(er) eye to doping; if the ciswomen are required to have 5nmol/L, then the transwomen should be required to have it, too. Or some number in between for both.

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Re: Transpeople in athletics

#20

Post by heidikay » Sat May 04, 2019 10:50 pm

KyleSchuant wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 10:18 pm
heidikay wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 7:25 pm Yes transwomen want to compete in women's (female) divisions.
For context:
1. Cismen normally have a tesosterone level of anywhere from 5 to 40nmol/L.
2. Men who present to a doctor with 8-10nmol/L (exact number depends on country) or less are considered to have a medical problem and can get testosterone replacement therapy.
3. Ciswomen normally have testosterone of 0.24-2.4nmol/L, and are considered by WADA to have a positive doping test if they come in at 5+nmol/L.
4. Currently, WADA/IOC require transwomen to have <10nmol/L to compete. Which is to say, transwomen are permitted up to twice them T of ciswomen, and are permitted levels of T which many cismen have naturally.

Related, the intersexed Caster Semenya falls into this gap, apparently, between the maximum 5 which ciswomen are allowed, and the 10 which transwomen are allowed. The IAAF has resolved this by requiring Semenya to depress her natural tesosterone below 5, just as WADA requires transwomen to depress theirs below 10.

I can't tell if the World Medical Association is against transitioning or not.

"If physicians do apply these drugs they do break ethical codes. The basic ethical code of all medical practice is never do harm, and it is doing harm to a perfectly normal body with just a rather high level of testosterone by administering drugs to use this in order to make them [e]legible for women's sport under these regulations."


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-05/ ... l/11081084

The issue, to my mind, is that ciswomen and transwomen are being held to different standards. This is evidently because most transwomen transitioning as adults, and it takes several years to depress their testosterone below 5nmol/L, and not many people will keep training for years and years without being able to compete, so requiring <5 would effectively exclude most transwomen.

So the question is whether you err on the side of including people, or err on the side of fair competition. The IOC has chosen inclusivity, and the IAAF has chosen fair competition.

Of course the two issues are related, since if competition is unfair then you exclude some people, for example if the 9.9nmol/L transwoman is smashing all the 1.5nmol/L ciswomen, many ciswomen will lose interest - probably not at the top level of competition, but the adolescent women coming up through the ranks, so to speak.

I would resolve it by having the same standard for all women, both ciswomen and transwomen. If the transwomen can have 10nmol/L, then so should the ciswomen be allowed to - which is to say, we turn a blind(er) eye to doping; if the ciswomen are required to have 5nmol/L, then the transwomen should be required to have it, too. Or some number in between for both.
Don't tag me in threads where you trot out Semenya (intersex) to make points about transwomen (natal males who went through male puberty and are aware of it but now want to say they are women).

Also,I am genderfree, so please refrain from referring to people as "cis." You are misgendering me.

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