Transpeople in athletics

[mbasic]

What’s the timeframe?

I don't want to muddy the discussion with special cases: let us assume completion of adolescence into early adulthood. After 19-21 an individual began to transition.

And there are basic bodily changes that occur in puberty that simply can't be erased by hormones therapy.

This is my main question. The general knowledge and literature recognizes significant difference between men and women as they undergo and complete puberty.

My understanding is this includes bone structure and density, muscle mass and density, CNS differences, and so on. Not all of which are altered by modifying the hormonal profile of an individual later in life. To reduce the differences between biological males and females to a simple testosterone range seems to be missing the forest for the trees.

@aurelius if you haven't been keeping up with what Dr.Rip has been saying recently (doesn't cite his sources that i see) but it might seem that testosterone affects male development in the womb. Things are set into motion there that cannot be undone (paraphrasing rip).
something something about 8 weeks in ...?!?!

I remember seeing another article/paper how mixed twins have some interesting characteristics.
The male and female fetuses are sharing that same amount of test. circulating in the womb.....
i.e. a female twin with a male twin has some different characteristics than female/female twin .... or a plain ol' single born female.

I didn't get into too much....but you can google the topic more.
https://www.leidenpsychologyblog.nl/art ... hypothesis
(Note this was only a psychology paper/article, not really looking at "it" from athletic performance perspective....but one could draw conclusions from this of course.)

In further support of the TTT hypothesis, physiological/morphological characteristics such as otoacoustic emissions (sounds produced by the inner ear either in response to a sound or in the absence of any stimulus (F>M)), tooth size (M>F) and brain size (M>F) also seem ‘masculinized’ through the intrauterine presence of a brother.

Interestingly, the TTT hypothesis holds not only for girls gestated with a brother: boys gestated together with another twin brother are also more masculinized than boys with a twin sister. However, the effects of gestation with a male co-twin are more pronounced in females than in males, possibly because females produce little testosterone themselves and therefore may be more susceptible to external testosterone.

[mgil]

@aurelius, my timeframe question is in regards to the duration of HRT for transpeople.

While a skeleton might not shrink in an MtF individual, given enough estrogen dosing over enough time, skeletal density should approach a female. Likewise, BF content and other physical characteristics would as well.

This isn't to dismiss the concerns, but to introduce the idea that it's going to be difficult to figure out all these issues when you take a transitioning male and try to determine response to estrogen and desired outcomes over a given rate of change and whatever else would bound the solution space.

[aurelius]

@mbasic I am only interested in developmental differences that offer a competitive advantage in human athletic competitions. I have no data but my gut informs me that puberty is where that primarily occurs.

[iamsmu]

@mbasic I am only interested in developmental differences that offer a competitive advantage in human athletic competitions. I have no data but my gut informs me that puberty is where that primarily occurs.

Yes. That's clear. There are several handy charts here:

"Sex differences in athletic performance emerge coinciding with the onset of male puberty"
David J Handelsman 2017

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... /cen.13350

ex.

While a skeleton might not shrink in an MtF individual, given enough estrogen dosing over enough time, skeletal density should approach a female. Likewise, BF content and other physical characteristics would as well.

Maybe. Maybe not. Perhaps bone density (if it is higher in men) remains higher even after long term estrogen exposure. [Perhaps super low-t men might provide an analogue. I don't know. Estrogen preserves bone density. Post-MP women have a problem with bone density from low E.

edit: one treatment for men with osteoporosis is estrogen.

https://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/features/male-men#1

low-T != transwomen on estrogen, etc.]

And the "muscle memory" theory, if true, would give a lasting advantage to those undergoing male puberty due to increased myonucluei.

[aurelius]

I do not envy sports that must deal with this issue. They must balance inclusion with fairness. Good luck.

[mbasic]

@mbasic I am only interested in developmental differences that offer a competitive advantage in human athletic competitions. I have no data but my gut informs me that puberty is where that primarily occurs.

There's quite a gap between men and women .... people will reference SVJ metrics, power sports, throwing events, 100m, etc.

Rip's assertion, and I might tend to agree with to an extent, it that the difference between men and women in their neuro-muscular efficiency....i.e.the ability to generate maximum force very rapidly.

To a large part this controlled by the nervous system and brain (and muscle fiber typing, etc).

These aspects can only be trained to a very small degree....its something you are born with.
Born with .... this is all "wired" before puberty, in the womb .... well, this is the idea anyways.

This NME may not change much before or after puberty,
AND/OR before or after sex-change-surgery,
AND/OR I-woke-up-today-and-i-feel-like-being-a-girl-today.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The other thing you have to catch up on is: the thing going around the men aren't really (all that?) stronger than women if you normalize for the amount of muscle they are carrying .... something something 97%

seems to me that's not jiving (either).

[Stenson]

This is an interesting read from Greg Nuckols:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.strong ... -diet/amp/

[Bcharles123]

I do not envy sports that must deal with this issue. They must balance inclusion with fairness. Good luck.

Very well said. (and for you, a PR. High intensity, low volume)

I would add that because sports are such a big business and because inclusion and fairness are in direct conflict, transgendered issues in sports are likely to set the stage for resolution across the rest of society. There are a lot more soccer players than cake bakers (or whatever). In other words, if you are concerned with transgender issues, follow what happens in sports.

[iamsmu]

This is an interesting read from Greg Nuckols:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.strong ... -diet/amp/

Ya. I linked to that way back when someone brought of Dr Gainzz Lean Body Mass theory.

I don't think the LBM theory fully explains the performance gap. The perf. difference in Olympic weightlifting alone cant be accounted for by LBM. . . .

Regardless, if most of it is true, it's not clear that it has much bearing on the issue.

Men have more lean body mass, especially in the upper body. So they are at an advantage.

Hormone therapy does not erase the bulk of the difference.
[One study that I know of: https://eje.bioscientifica.com/view/jou ... 7-0496.xml]

Weight class doesn't = lean body mass.

And the general size advantage and the LBM that comes with it make inclusion in team sports unfair.

The first take away concedes nearly all of this in a confusing way:

Most of the major differences in performance and metabolism between genders can be explained by size and body composition, not gender itself.

What would it mean for the differences to be explained by "gender itself". What would such an explanation look like? Sounds like some kind of empty position that no one holds. OK sure. Some differences between the sexes explain the performance differences, not the mere fact that they are different sexes. Ya. No shit.

[Stenson]

This is an interesting read from Greg Nuckols:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.strong ... -diet/amp/

Ya. I linked to that way back when someone brought of Dr Gainzz Lean Body Mass theory.

I don't think the LBM theory fully explains the performance gap. The perf. difference in Olympic weightlifting alone cant be accounted for by LBM. . . .

Regardless, if most of it is true, it's not clear that it has much bearing on the issue.

Men have more lean body mass, especially in the upper body. So they are at an advantage.

Hormone therapy does not erase the bulk of the difference.

Weight class doesn't = lean body mass.

And the general size advantage and the LBM that comes with it make inclusion in team sports unfair.

The first take away concedes nearly all of this in a confusing way:

Most of the major differences in performance and metabolism between genders can be explained by size and body composition, not gender itself.

What would it mean for the differences to be explained by "gender itself". What would such an explanation look like? Sounds like some kind of empty position that no one holds. OK sure. Some differences between the sexes explain the performance differences, not the mere fact that they are different sexes. Ya. No shit.

I agree with you. Even if the LBM theory explains MOST of the difference (Nuckols says 97%, not exactly sure how he came up with that number), it doesn't explain everything. A difference of just 3% can (and likely will) be the difference between 1st place and off the podium.

He writes that one of the other differences is muscle fiber type, which to my knowledge wouldn't be affected by HRT.

[mgil]

I do not envy sports that must deal with this issue. They must balance inclusion with fairness. Good luck.

Absolutely.

I’m still suspect of long-term results. Plus comparing a feminine male phenotype to a masculine male phenotype in a MtF transition is going to result in two (obvious) separate outcomes.

[DoctorWho]

You have to choose words very carefully to conclude that there is very little difference. And it's talking past the issue.

Isn't it very rare to see girls killing it in little league? I know it is rare in youth wrestling for girls even in 10U to excel. If the difference is only in the attributes that Nuckols proposes, or only because of puberty, shouldn't we see roughly even performance in youth sports -- that is, before the proposed differences become material (?)?

My son complained that a female coach at a local club was banging on his head, mad that he was beating her. She was in college and that year won a national championship. My son was 13 and fully on his way to a man's body (and was just starting to get good), but 8 months earlier was just a little boy.(*) And the woman had more mat time than my son at that point, and outweighed him. My point is that even a short exposure to male hormones was huge.

(*) This isn't really bragging -- my son has the nightmarish combination of my looks and my wife's athletic ability.

[hsilman]

I'm not really going to participate here so feel free to ignore this I guess.

Has the possibility that Transwomen are the emerging 1% of elite female athletes been discussed? Isn't that fine, why is that an unfair framing of the issue? It seems it only becomes a problem if they "aren't really women" which seems like a separate discussion.

[mbasic]

Has the possibility that Transwomen are the emerging 1% of elite female athletes been discussed? Isn't that fine, why is that an unfair framing of the issue? It seems it only becomes a problem if they "aren't really women" which seems like a separate discussion.

I don't follow this ^.

[Wilhelm]

Has the possibility that Transwomen are the emerging 1% of elite female athletes been discussed? Isn't that fine, why is that an unfair framing of the issue? It seems it only becomes a problem if they "aren't really women" which seems like a separate discussion.

I don't follow this ^.

In my head i said, "What does this even mean?"

[DoctorWho]

I'm not really going to participate here so feel free to ignore this I guess.

Has the possibility that Transwomen are the emerging 1% of elite female athletes been discussed? Isn't that fine, why is that an unfair framing of the issue? It seems it only becomes a problem if they "aren't really women" which seems like a separate discussion.

Isn't that the entire discussion? These emerging elite athletes were mediocre male athletes before transitioning, as near as I can tell.

And I don't understand your premise. If it's true that transwomen are the new elite athletes, then it's an argument for tighter regulation or a ban. Weightlifting is one thing, but we better figure out what is the level playing field for combat sports.

[hsilman]

If it's true that transwomen are the new elite athletes, then it's an argument for tighter regulation or a ban.

why? Are transwomen not women?

my premise is that being trans is an athletic advantage(for transwomen) just like being born with more type 2 muscle fibers or whatever.

edit: that last part was combative. not my intention. so I removed it.

[DoctorWho]

Introducing an abstract and indeterminate test isn't helpful. Define those terms how you want them, and then come back with a test for how to have a level playing field.

For example, should self-identification be enough?

[mbasic]

If it's true that transwomen are the new elite athletes, then it's an argument for tighter regulation or a ban.

why? Are transwomen not women?

because they're not.
and if you say in your/their mind that they are ... well, they weren't at one point either.

my premise is that being trans is an athletic advantage(for transwomen) just like being born with more type 2 muscle fibers or whatever.

Then, if you are truly being honest with yourself, then this "argument" will eventually devolve into Rip's argument about one "Open" class for everything. (And also, just let there be unlimited steroid use then)

[iamsmu]

I don't follow this ^.

He's trying to suck us back into the discussion of the nature of what it is to be a woman and what it is to be female.

The sex division in sports was labelled based on the traditional notion of what it is to be a woman: "an adult human female." They might as well have called it "female sports."

You could have a re-visionary notion of what it is to be a woman (such as "someone who identifies as a woman") and still think that sports should be sex segregated, (male\female). It's perfectly coherent (not the definition of woman, but the policy). . . .

But if you try to redefine "female" to include transwomen (which is bonkers), then it would look like you have to let them play.

But you wouldn't. You could still restrict the field based on some other convoluted criteria (which would ultimately just pick out the fact that they are male . . . ). The IOC restricts some women who have high t-levels. We might call them female, but still have a rule against their participation to keep the games competitive.

Oh damn it. I got sucked in, partially. . . .