Transpeople in athletics

[KyleSchuant]

I quoted you, I didn't tag you, heidikay. I have been until now unaware of your personal status or identity as I've not followed your journal or seen you comment about these issues elsewhere, nor did I refer to your gender in any way. This will become clear to you if you read my whole post rather than simply quoting it.

I mentioned Semenya simply because she illustrates the difficulties of the gap between the 5nmol/L the IAAF is after and the 10nmol/L the IOC is after, and the difficulties that inconsistent standards raise for fair competition and the competitors involved. It is unjust to require people change their natural state, but it is also unjust to allow unfair competition.

I believe it is possible to have a discussion of these issues without attacking individuals personally, and without the misogyny and transphobia, etc I've seen displayed on this forum and others.

[BenM]

The Semenya issue is only related in that there is a common method being used to determine eligibility to compete (testosterone level).

The problem with conflating them like this (IMO) is that there's a massive difference between someone who is genetically blessed* with that physiological advantage from birth versus someone who uses medical intervention to get those same advantages.

*I used that term loosely as while Semenya's condition predisposes her to elite athletic performance I'm sure it's a double edged sword and has other ramifications for her health

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

In principle it would be fairly easy to create an ELO-type system for PL...the tricky part would be the relatively slow rate that results are accumulated (Chess Ratings for instance thrive on having lots of results "generated" very frequently), so you'd either have a small pool of well-rated Lifters or a larger pool of poorly-rated ones.

[BenM]

And you'd still have complaints about fairness. The system you're describing sounds a lot like a golf handicap. And people are accused of manipulating those all the time.....

[mettkeks]

Powerlifting does not classify people based on effort. I don't think you can fault my proposal for also not not considering "years of training so far".

Classifications are just excuses to hand out more than one trophy. Because more trophies means more fun.

What's so terrible about a trophy for "strongest lifter who never totaled over 1000 before"? Is it any more or less fair than "strongest women over 60" or "strongest lifter with Down's syndrome"?

(this is all bullshittery -- powerlifting will probably end up ruling out MtF athletes competing as women, and I really don't care if they do or don't)

Effort doesn't matter in competition. Results do. Theres a division for your age and weight, if you are not competitive, work harder, if you are still not competitive, you either do it for fun or look for another hobby. Why should formula 1 give out trophies for 19th place? For being "just not the slowest? At that point buy one.



(Of course this is bullshittery, but it's entertaining me )

[mettkeks]

The Semenya issue is only related in that there is a common method being used to determine eligibility to compete (testosterone level).

The problem with conflating them like this (IMO) is that there's a massive difference between someone who is genetically blessed* with that physiological advantage from birth versus someone who uses medical intervention to get those same advantages.

*I used that term loosely as while Semenya's condition predisposes her to elite athletic performance I'm sure it's a double edged sword and has other ramifications for her health

But if she really has XY chromosomes with internal testicles and lacks a womb, then genetically blessed isn't the right way to describe her status, because there is a division for people with her advantage.

Also,I am genderfree, so please refrain from referring to people as "cis." You are misgendering me.

You bring the torch, and I bring the pitchfork.

[BenM]

But if she really has XY chromosomes with internal testicles and lacks a womb, then genetically blessed isn't the right way to describe her status, because there is a division for people with her advantage.

That hasn't been confirmed has it? I guess I'd reconsider how I feel about things if it was, but the fact remains she was still born the way she is and has identified as female since birth, unlike MtF transwomen who gain an advantage by changing gender.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

Well PL and Strongman have long had Novice Comps so there's some interest in this sort of grouping, I guess.

I find it interesting that so many see this as largely as a either / or situation when I'm not sure the evidence points that way strongly enough to categorically say any advantages are overwhelmingly and always unfair...

[mettkeks]

But if she really has XY chromosomes with internal testicles and lacks a womb, then genetically blessed isn't the right way to describe her status, because there is a division for people with her advantage.

That hasn't been confirmed has it? I guess I'd reconsider how I feel about things if it was, but the fact remains she was still born the way she is and has identified as female since birth, unlike MtF transwomen who gain an advantage by changing gender.

The XY chromosomes are confirmed. I would argue that burden of proof would be on her since they already allowed her what works out to be supraphysioligical levels of testosterone for XX females, they don't exclude her from either division after all. Either bring proof, or accept the ruling and proceed accordingly

I know It's a hot topic and I understand that it totally sucks for people in her position, but I think it's important to find rules that work for everyone, and not just for extreme cases like hers.

[mettkeks]

Well PL and Strongman have long had Novice Comps so there's some interest in this sort of grouping, I guess.

I find it interesting that so many see this as largely as a either / or situation when I'm not sure the evidence points that way strongly enough to categorically say any advantages are overwhelmingly and always unfair...

But that's totally different to what cwd proposed. He wanted grown men compete against children and small women as long as their performance matched.

If one advantage absolutely determines the outcome of competition, and has been shown to do so for the last 120 years, either/or absolutely applies.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

We don't have 120 years of data comparing MTF to other Females though, do we?

[mettkeks]

We don't have 120 years of data comparing MTF to other Females though, do we?

Yeah, we have that data comparing males to females. Identifying as female even if you underwent cosmetic surgery that negatively affects your performance doesn't not make you male, does it?

Edit: this will be purged anyways.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

We don't have 120 years of data comparing MTF to other Females though, do we?

Yeah, we have that data comparing males to females. Identifying as female even if you underwent cosmetic surgery that negatively affects your performance doesn't not make you male, does it?

Edit: this will be purged anyways.

Why?

[mettkeks]

Why?

Future posts on the transpeople in athletics, unless it’s commentary on Rip’s meanderings, will be purged from this thread.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

Ah, right - I should probably read better...

[cwd]

Effort doesn't matter in competition. Results do. Theres a division for your age and weight, if you are not competitive, work harder, if you are still not competitive, you either do it for fun or look for another hobby. Why should formula 1 give out trophies for 19th place? For being "just not the slowest? At that point buy one.

I'll reply in the other thread, if I get around to it.

[DoctorWho]

it will eventually come into wrestling

Already arrived.

Transgender wrestler wins second Texas state girls’ championship

That's different, in a way. Trans-boy (born a girl) taking testosterone wrestling in the girls division, who claims to want to wrestle in the boys division. Also, Mack Beggs is not as dominant as the headlines appear. Mack doesn't place in the girls divisions in national tournaments, and most tournaments around the country allow girls to wrestle in boys divisions, but she is not competitive in the boys divisions.

[mettkeks]

it will eventually come into wrestling

Already arrived.

Transgender wrestler wins second Texas state girls’ championship

That's a little different. Trans-boy (born a girl) taking testosterone wrestling in the girls division. Also, Mack Beggs is not as dominant as the headlines appear. She doesn't place in the girls divisions in national tournaments. (Texas is not known for wrestling depth).

He can't compete in the mens division because he's female, but is allowed to wrestle against other females, even though he's taking AAS. That he's not that good skill wise compared to other top athletes, is not an excuse.

[JonA]

. He wanted grown men compete against children and small women as long as their performance matched.

Been there and done that in a ping pong tournament. By all accounts, it was quite entertaining. I didn't notice, I was too busy flailing around trying to return insanely difficult volleys.

Personally, I think he cheated by gaming the handicap system. Just because his head didn't clear the table doesn't he should get a free reign!

[alek]

I believe it is possible to have a discussion of these issues without attacking individuals personally, and without the misogyny and transphobia, etc I've seen displayed on this forum and others.

Granted, I probably haven’t read every post on this topic on this forum, and my definition of transphobia is probably not the one used by the general public (I imagine the general public uses transphobia when they should use transbigotry, but my knowledge of the general public and popular culture is very low I’ll add.), but I don’t think that’s going on here in general.

I would say that the vast amount of discussion on this topic has been civil—again, at least what I’ve read. I would also imagine that if it were not, then some mod-hammers would come down, and I don’t think I’ve seen that either.