Transpeople in athletics

[cwd]

. He wanted grown men compete against children and small women as long as their performance matched.

Been there and done that in a ping pong tournament. By all accounts, it was quite entertaining. I didn't notice, I was too busy flailing around trying to return insanely difficult volleys.

Right, I don't see a problem with "ability" categories for non-contact sports like powerlifting, ping-pong, or chess.

Think how much satisfaction a strong woman would get out of beating me in the "under 1000 total in competition before" class, or how fun it would be for some 300-lb 16-year-old who just took up power lifting a month ago to beat a 180-lb guy who has been training for 10 years! Yes it will be embarrassing for me to lose to a girl, and for the other guy to lose to a newb. But in sport someone's gotta lose.

From a time-efficiency standpoint, the powerlifting meet would run more smoothly if all the people attempting benches in the 200-lb range lifted together...

[heidikay]

Also,I am genderfree, so please refrain from referring to people as "cis." You are misgendering me.

You bring the torch, and I bring the pitchfork.

It is literal violence when "folks" cisgender me

[Hanley]

Also,I am genderfree, so please refrain from referring to people as "cis." You are misgendering me.

You bring the torch, and I bring the pitchfork.

It is literal violence when "folks" cisgender me

ooooohhhh cisrage

[iamsmu]

Not much new here, but it's another article on the issue.

It now takes courage to raise any such objections. Feminists in good standing the day before yesterday are getting ostracized for insisting that there are differences between men and women that matter and can’t be ignored or wished away.

When the tennis great Martina Navratilova wrote against biological men competing in women’s sports, she was roundly attacked as transphobic and swiftly booted from the board of the LGBT group Athlete Ally. Former Olympic swimmer Sharron Davies, from Britain, got mobbed for expressing similar sentiments.

https://nypost.com/2019/03/04/trans-ath ... ns-sports/

[cwd]

Right, I don't see a problem with "ability" categories for non-contact sports like powerlifting, ping-pong, or chess.

So I was thinking about this some more, and changed my mind.

Powerlifters don't actually oppose one another as in chess and ping pong. Those sports need ability grouping to provide close-enough matches to be fun.

PL is more like drag racing or pole vaulting. Heck, it's a lot like the biggest-vegetable contest at the state fair.

We want to know which stock car is fastest. Which tomato is biggest. Comparing tomatoes to pumpkins, or motorcycles to funny-cars, just isn't very interesting. We want to compare within the categories we're accustomed to.

We're accustomed to categorizing people in particular ways, by tradition and maybe instinct. Men and women are pretty natural categories.

Of course race is too, and we don't award marathon trophies for "best white runner". If a white person wants to win a marathon, they just have to shop around for a race small enough that no East Africans show up.

[DoctorWho]

it will eventually come into wrestling

Already arrived.

Transgender wrestler wins second Texas state girls’ championship

That's a little different. Trans-boy (born a girl) taking testosterone wrestling in the girls division. Also, Mack Beggs is not as dominant as the headlines appear. She doesn't place in the girls divisions in national tournaments. (Texas is not known for wrestling depth).

He can't compete in the mens division because he's female, but is allowed to wrestle against other females, even though he's taking AAS. That he's not that good skill wise compared to other top athletes, is not an excuse.

Many states, including PA and I think NJ, allow junior high and high school girls to compete with boys. And a wrestler can compete virtually every weekend throughout the year, and girls can enter the boys divisions. So "he can't (meaning not allowed) compete in the men's division" is true in the context of the news headlines, but mostly otherwise not true. (I'm not trying to be disagreeable, only raising this issue because it smells fishy).
My point is that this case is different from trans-women setting records because Mack dominates girls only in Texas, which except for a few exceptions (and wow what exceptions), as a state has pretty bad wrestling. When I looked up Mack's record in national tournaments (against girls), I saw only DNP.

[mettkeks]

Many states, including PA and I think NJ, allow junior high and high school girls to compete with boys. And a wrestler can compete virtually every weekend throughout the year, and girls can enter the boys divisions. So "he can't (meaning not allowed) compete in the men's division" is true in the context of the news headlines, but mostly otherwise not true. (I'm not trying to be disagreeable, only raising this issue because it smells fishy).
My point is that this case is different from trans-women setting records because Mack dominates girls only in Texas, which except for a few exceptions (and wow what exceptions), as a state has pretty bad wrestling. When I looked up Mack's record in national tournaments (against girls), I saw only DNP.

I'm not against that. I think that Transmen should be able to compete against males if they want. It's the other way that I think is wrong. He obviously didn't want to compete against females, so he wasn't at fault here.

[mbasic]

The XY chromosomes are confirmed.

source?

[mgil]

The XY chromosomes are confirmed.

source?

Agreed. From a cursory inspection of what’s available, I saw nothing of chromosomal evidence.

[cgeorg]

This article

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/wh ... romosomes/

links to this release from the arbitration

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_ ... cision.pdf

Which contains this

In March/April 2018, the IAAF cancelled its “Hyperandrogenism Regulations”, which had been
primarily challenged by the Indian athlete Dutee Chand, and replaced them with the DSD Regulations
establishing new requirements governing the eligibility of women with DSD for the female
classification in race events from 400m to 1 mile (the “Restricted Events”) at international athletics
competitions. The DSD covered by the Regulations are limited to athletes with “46 XY DSD” – i.e.
conditions where the affected individual has XY chromosomes. Accordingly, individuals with XX
chromosomes are not subject to any restrictions or eligibility conditions under the DSD Regulations.

Athletes with 46 XY DSD have testosterone levels well into the male range (7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L;
normal female range being below 2 nmol/L). The DSD Regulations require athletes with 46 XY DSD
with a natural testosterone level over 5 nmol/L, and who experience a “material androgenizing effect”
from that enhanced testosterone level, to reduce their natural testosterone level to below 5 nmol/L,
and to maintain that reduced level for a continuous period of at least six months in order to be eligible
to compete in a Restricted Event. Such reduction can be achieved, according to the IAAF evidence,
by the use of normal oral contraceptives.

[iamsmu]

The XY chromosomes are confirmed.

source?

Agreed. From a cursory inspection of what’s available, I saw nothing of chromosomal evidence.

The Court of Arbitration in Sports (CAS) issues a press release. They summarize the IAAF's DSD regulation as applying only to 46 XY DSDs. This is not exactly right. The IAAF lists 7 conditions. 6 of these are XY conditions. Either way the CAS summary is explicit that the XY conditions were what was at issue.

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_ ... cision.pdf

From the CAS release:



From the IAAF regulations:



You can download the IAAF regulations here:

https://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release ... classifica

CAH in XX is the relevant. This is the only condition that isn't XY on the list. (The XY variant would never be an issue.)

http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/cah

[iamsmu]

This article

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/wh ... romosomes/

links to this release from the arbitration

https://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_ ... cision.pdf

Looks like you beat me to it.

[mettkeks]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/other ... -show.html

The tests carried out on the 18 year-old shortly after her victory in Berlin are believed to have shown that she has a chromosomal abnormality that gives her both male and female characteristics.

According to reports in the Australian media, the medical tests have established that she has no womb or ovaries and that she also has internal testes – the male sexual organs responsible for producing testosterone.

Earlier analysis had revealed that Semenya's testosterone levels were three times the normal level for a woman.

The International Association of Athletics Federations received the results of Semenya's 'gender verification test' this week, but it has refused to confirm the findings until they have been verified by a panel of independent scientific experts and the athlete has been personally informed.

[mbasic]

(deleted, new info posted)

[cgeorg]

yes, everything is worded very carefully here as for the news outlet not to get sued.
I don't think there is any definitive report out there circulating.
"media something alleges another media something believed report of a referenced something media report something"

I mean .... I'm not saying she is or isn't something.
A lot of people are speculating on the nature of the condition.

I feel bad for her; and her situation is much different than M-F-Trans issue in sports.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/other ... -show.html

The tests carried out on the 18 year-old shortly after her victory in Berlin are believed to have shown that she has a chromosomal abnormality that gives her both male and female characteristics.

According to reports in the Australian media, the medical tests have established that she has no womb or ovaries and that she also has internal testes – the male sexual organs responsible for producing testosterone.

Earlier analysis had revealed that Semenya's testosterone levels were three times the normal level for a woman.

The International Association of Athletics Federations received the results of Semenya's 'gender verification test' this week, but it has refused to confirm the findings until they have been verified by a panel of independent scientific experts and the athlete has been personally informed.

You did an excellent job of ignoring the actual report from the arbitration panel in her case.

[mbasic]

You did an excellent job of ignoring the actual report from the arbitration panel in her case.

yeah, I'm seeing that now, the stuff you posted.

I slowly type on this shit while at my desk at work between tasks.
The forum posts don't update me real time, and I don't have a time machine.

I'll go back and edit it now that I see what you've posted (I have to read it first too).

[iamsmu]

yes, everything is worded very carefully here as for the news outlet not to get sued.

You did an excellent job of ignoring the actual report from the arbitration panel in her case.

Everything prior to the CAS ruling was speculation. The information had never been released. But, unless we think the CAS made a mistake, Semenya is XY and has some significant level of androgen sensitivity. Semnya's exact condition is still unknown. But it is one in a handful. The CAS press release makes that clear.

Either way, Semenya is not trans, was raised as a girl, has female external genitalia (of some sort), and is not competitive against men.

The hard problem here is how to draw the line. Semenya most plausibly has testes and is at least fairly responsive to testosterone. This is just one click away from male. These intersex athletes are screwed. (I suspect that there are more than we might realize at the elite levels in some sports. I dunno and I won't point any fingers.)

(One thing that is troubling, is that the CAS makes a mistake in their summary of the IAAF regulations. As far as I can tell, CAH XX is regulated. I read the entire regulation document and all the footnotes, which are important. . . . The CAS says that no XX conditions are regulated.)

[JonA]

I'm starting to think that just giving everyone who participates a trophy might actually be the best solution. She beat you by half a lap? Here's your trophy! Good Job! You beat her by a 200lb total? Here's your trophy! Good Job!

[iamsmu]

https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/05/06/ ... gical-boys

In addition to potentially instating a nationwide bathroom requirement, health care mandate, and a “preferred pronoun” law based on gender identity, the Equality Act would enshrine in federal law the right of biological boys to compete as girls in all sports.

If the measure passes, Stanescu warned, “women will be completely eradicated from sports.”

What’s happening in Connecticut, she added, will happen across the country—and not just in track and field.

The athletes say they don’t fear only being bullied or portrayed as a bigot. They also hope to attend college, and are afraid their politically incorrect views could hurt their prospects.

“I personally want a future in athletics in college,” a third girl told The Daily Signal, “but I feel like if there’s a coach that disagrees with my personal opinion, or a board that disagrees with it, then they’ll already have a predisposition with me and then it’ll affect maybe playing time or my ability to get into that college.”

“We have college down the road—I’m scared that that could get impacted,” a fourth girl said. “Sometimes the coaches will just like look at the lists … and if you’re not No. 1 then they won’t choose you.”

“I have heard opinions where coaches are just going to look at your times, and that they don’t really care where you place,” the first girl added. “But college coaches are going to these bigger meets, and when they don’t see you there, they’re not necessarily focusing on you. They’re focusing on the people that are there.”

“It kept Selina from getting to New Englands, where she had the opportunity to be running in front of college coaches, which is just unfair,” she added.

[iamsmu]