The Great LP Stall Thread of Shame

[DPriest442]

Started midway in 2019

Thanks.
Previous training or sports?
Age at the time?
Height?
Cleans?

Not much training or sport. Played cricket and rubgy when I was very young but not for long
I started with I was 20, height 174cm, no cleans

[LuisAntunes]

@KyleSchuant Was a competitive swimmer/soccer player for about 6 years. Was 26yo 171cm when i ran the program. Didnt do cleans.

[KyleSchuant]

Thanks guys, very helpful.

Note that one of the YNDTFP responses is that people are unwilling to put on weight. In this data set, the median male starting weight is 181, and ending is 205lb. The hypothesis is not supported by the data so far.

[Jumrobe]

@@KyleSchuant I was 20, 6' 175lb when I started the LP. I was previously a mediocre competitive swimmer and competitive golfer. I had also dabbled with lifting before doing he LP, mostly dumb bell routines that I had self written, and weren't terribly good. If I had to take a guess, I had deadlifted 225x5 and squatted 185x5 before attempting the LP.

[Philbert]

I lost my old log book the last time I moved, so I don't have exact dates and numbers.
I started in spring 2011 with PRs (singles) of 275 squat (HB, no belt, sneakers) 165 bench, 350 DL, 130 press. 6' tall bodyweight 180.
I did multiple runs over 1.5 years with multiple interruptions for trail race training and life, as well as a few months when I did 5/3/1 and regressed on squat and DL. I ended in December 2012 with 385x5 squat (LB) 220x5 bench, 425x5 DL, and 135x5 press. Bodyweight 210. I did have shoulder and elbow problems related to LBBS and benching. I did cleans, but I don't remember the numbers. Prior to that I did Crossfit for 2 years, and prior to that I was a manual laborer, no prior organized sports. I was lucky in that the second time I got tired of LP, Les had just posted the original KUA, it was new and shiny and looked less awful than TM.

[sean0]

I jump in here for my first post. Did SS NLP in 2013. Started at 94kg (207lbs) bodyweight, ended at 105kg (231lbs). I'm 1.88m tall (6'2")

Starting weights were pretty low, but mainly cos I didn't really know what I was doing. I played rugby for most of my life before starting but had never been in a gym. I was 30 at the time.

First stall was at:
LBBS: 3x5x157.5kg (347lbs)
BP: 3x5x90kg (198lbs)
DL: 1x5x165kg (364lbs)
OHP: 3x5x65kg (143lbs)
PC: 5x3x92.5kg (204lbs)

This was after 12 weeks on SS NLP

At this point I was totally fried - mentally and physically. I can still remember the dread for the whole day before starting a workout where I had to set a new 5RM on squats, then match it with two more sets. And then repeat again a few days later. I was doing a light squat day on Wednesday after about 135kg. From about that point I started taking two workouts to complete the whole 3x5 (i.e. Mon 5x140, 5x140, 4x140f, Friday 3x5x140kg).

I reset by 10% and after another month I was at:
LBBS: 3x5x162.5kg (358lbs)
BP: 3x5x95kg (209lbs)
DL: 1x5x165kg (364lbs)
OHP: 3x5x70kg (154lbs)
PC: 5x3x92.5kg (204lbs)

So I gained 5kg on squat, bench and press from the reset, but deadlift didn't move (my form was pretty poor on DL). Bench and press form improved which is where most of that gain came from (got some competitive powerlifters to check my form).

My overall thoughts were that the first run to the first stall was a very very worthwhile thing to do, even if it was a big struggle towards the end. The reset was probably not a great idea. Though it yielded some results, it burned me out mentally in a huge way. Some proper intermediate programming would have probably given similar results and would have been a lot less fatiguing (maybe)

[KyleSchuant]

Your feelings are not unusual. one of the first criticisms I had of the method was that it is open-ended. people can put up with all sorts of awful shit if they know when it is going to end. "Keep going until you fail" may be correct physiologically, but it is really stupid psychologically and is a great way to ensure low compliance.

[gmcourtney]

I'm not quite sure how I landed here... but this thread had proved to be very enlightening to me. I'm a 38 y/o total newbie. I was always a tiny kid. After puberty, I grew in height, but still super lanky. I played rec league /intramural level sports. I always had fairly good coordination and was always competent at the sports I played, but no one was ever going to confuse me with a gifted athlete.

After dealing with a couple of health scares in 2018-2019, I became very well aware that I needed to address my physical health, or lack of... I found Starting Strength, and started NLP in January 2020 at the SSGym in Denver. I had never touched a barbell in my life before then.

NLP Attempt 1: Jan 2020 -> March 2020
37/ m / 5'10"
BW: 138 lb -> 155 lb
SQ: 75x5x3 -> 170x3x5
P: 45x5x3 -> 67.5x5x3
B: 65x5x3 -> 110x3x5
DL: 115x5x1 -> 235x3x2

First NLP was a bit of a disaster. Reset my squats pretty early, after developing adductor issues around 150lb or so. I had to reset pressing movements nearly right away. I've got a limited ROM with my left shoulder, which caused me to always have the bar out in front. I switched from 5's to 3s, started light day, once my squat got to body weight. Covid caused the gym to shutdown, and that put an end to NLP 1. Probably a good thing, because I needed a break.

As much as my NLP didn't go smoothly, I did learn that I really enjoyed training. Although my numbers were pretty pathetic, the fact that I could DL over 200 lbs was something that motivated me. I ended up finding equipment through REP Fitness, actually at retail, without getting price gouged. Thus, my basement gym came into existance.

NLP Attempt 2: June 2020 -> August 2020
BW: 150 lb -> 160 lb
SQ: 95x5x3 -> 200x5x3
P: 45x5x3 -> 77.5x4x4
B: 65x5x3 -> 110x5x3
DL: 135x5 -> 255x5

Attempt 2, did much better. No resets. No injuries. I saw a PT about my shoulder which helped my press technique. NLP2 came to an end, because my wife had to have a major surgery. I became full time caregiver, not eating well, sleeping 3-4 hours a night. I ran into a wall with training and had to stop.

NLP Attempt 3: December 2020 -> Feb 2021
BW: 155 lb -> 165 lb
SQ: 95x5x3 -> 220x5x3
P: 45x5x3 -> 80x5x3
B: 65x5x3 -> 125x5x3 (missed 130, backed off to 127.5... missed again, and reset.)
DL: 135x5 -> 265x5

Attempt 3 was going much better, but again around 10 weeks, I stalled out on Bench first. I hadn't reset any other lifts. Then a co-worker of mine left the company, I took over a bunch of his responsibilities. 1 missed workout became 2, then 3. Now I haven't lifted since 2/2.

I'm grateful for having found SSNLP, because I was able to learn the lifts, and it provided motivation to challenge myself with something I didn't know if I could do. I found myself getting sick of the YNDTFP nonsense, and the idea that if you're not griding to a pulp, you're just a p*ssy, and that I need to be shoveling food to no end. I'd love to gain more weight, and gain it faster. However, one of the health problems I deal with is Inflamatory Bowel issues. If I GOMAD, I would never stop sh*tting. If I eat much more than 2800-3000 kCal per day, it flares up my IBS. Honestly, I find it nothing short of a miracle that I've managed to get up to 165lb. I'm still have the goal to get up to 180-185, but I have to take it 2-3 lbs/month, not per week. I also can't stand the faux-macho posturing and the hyper-conservative nonsense, but I'm able to ignore personalities, accept valuable information, and throw away the rest.

This thread may not be the appropriate place to ask the question... but since my training history is already documented above... any suggestions on where the best place to go from here? I've gained size/mass in my lower body, which makes sense with such a squat heavy program like SSNLP. I haven't gained any significant size in my upper body, and feel like with how sad my upper body numbers are, I need something different. I've been debating between sticking with NLP, but adding the BBM Press plugin, or switching to either BBM Beginner or The Bridge.

Given that I've been on a 3 week layoff, should I run NLP back to where I was, then switch? Start something different right away?

[mgil]

@gmcourtney, I'm glad you came to enjoy training for what it is, that's an important thing in and of itself.

Your numbers are really pretty solid considering your BW and digestive issues.

Are you still fairly constrained timewise? I'd probably recommend a good upper/lower split where the volume is about equal for both, keep focus on compound movements, and add a few fun accessories as appropriate.

What type of facility do you have access to? Home gym noted...

[gmcourtney]

@mgil, thanks for the input. Things are starting to calm down, as I'm wrapping up one of the projects I've been responsible for. So now I'll be down to 2 clients to manage instead of 3. That said, time is a concern. My sessions have been taking every bit of 90 minutes, as I'm doing around 6 mins rest between squat sets, and 4-5 between everything else. I have been considering doing something 4 days, because honestly 4 days of 60 minutes would be easier for me than 3 days of 90.

As far as equipment goes... it's basic garage gym fare. Bar, rack, bench, enough plates that I can load more than I can lift.

[mgil]

mgil, thanks for the input. Things are starting to calm down, as I'm wrapping up one of the projects I've been responsible for. So now I'll be down to 2 clients to manage instead of 3. That said, time is a concern. My sessions have been taking every bit of 90 minutes, as I'm doing around 6 mins rest between squat sets, and 4-5 between everything else. I have been considering doing something 4 days, because honestly 4 days of 60 minutes would be easier for me than 3 days of 90.

As far as equipment goes... it's basic garage gym fare. Bar, rack, bench, enough plates that I can load more than I can lift.

I'd start with some sketch based on simple modifications of the 4-day TM (since you'll be coming off NLP it makes some sense):

Day 0:
Rest/live/whatever

Day 1:
Bench 5 x 5 @ ~75% e1RM
OHP 3 x 8 @ ~65% e1RM
Deltoid flies and stuff with small plates

Day 2:
Squat 5 x 5 @ ~75% e1RM
DL 3 x 3 @ ~75% e1RM
Lunges/step-ups or something

Day 3:
Maybe some cardio. LISS or HITT
Do some stretching or yoga for a bit, i.e. being flexible and mobile are good

Day 4;
Bench 1 x 1 @ ~90% e1RM (<-- this is the calibration set)
Bench 3 x 3 @ ~80% e1RM
Bench 2 x 5 @ ~70% e1RM
OHP (follow bench schedule)
Curls of some sort (using small plates for high reps)

Day 5:
Squat 1 x 1 @ ~90% e1RM (<-- this is the calibration set)
Squat 3 x 3 @ ~80% e1RM
Squat 2 x 5 @ ~70% e1RM
DL 2 x 1 @ ~90% e1RM (2 sets, calibration also)
DL 4 x 2 @ ~80% e1RM (don't dawdle too much)
Rows
Some sprints around outside if you want

Day 6:
Cardio if you want

Notes:

Back off sets are supposed to be kinda light. Keep them quick and try to get back under the bar when you can. Even for deadlifts, those 80% pulls are something like RPE6 sets. Recovery should be quick. The singles are 7 to 8.

If you're moving through sets quickly, I'd estimate each session around 60 minutes. Cardio on those trailing days will help with capacity to keep you moving.

It's just a free sketch of something I'd recommend for someone coming off LP. Squat reps are about the same in count, but you'll a little more pulling. Deadlifts are good stimulus for overall growth. Upper body work is at about 100 meaningful reps per week, as opposed to the 45 you were getting. You can pitch everything after the first two lifts if you run out of time.

[Philbert]

Gmcourtney: That was a decent set of LP runs. And your IBD may have done you a favor (for the only time in your entire life) as a common problem is gaining too much weight on LP. I like Mgil's suggestion. I would take 10% off your calculated 1rm based on your last workout to set the initial percentages since you are coming off a break in training. That should let you adapt to the volume before the weight gets into heavy PR territory. Pressing after benching you may find the press much harder than you expect, and may be unable to meet your sets and reps at targeted percentage initially, it will eventually catch up and start moving.

[mgil]

Gmcourtney: That was a decent set of LP runs. And your IBD may have done you a favor (for the only time in your entire life) as a common problem is gaining too much weight on LP. I like Mgil's suggestion. I would take 10% off your calculated 1rm based on your last workout to set the initial percentages since you are coming off a break in training. That should let you adapt to the volume before the weight gets into heavy PR territory. Pressing after benching you may find the press much harder than you expect, and may be unable to meet your sets and reps at targeted percentage initially, it will eventually catch up and start moving.

Good point about the OHP.

If 3x8@65% feels too hard after bench, then do 5x5@65% for OHP after bench for a while until it feels as easy as it should (like RPE 4 or less...).

[gmcourtney]

Thank you both for the input. I’m going to give this program a try and get started this coming week.

[Laughter95]

I found myself getting sick of the YNDTFP nonsense, and the idea that if you're not griding to a pulp, you're just a p*ssy, and that I need to be shoveling food to no end.

Is this culture espoused at the SS Denver Gym, or just in their online/Rippetoe content?

[KyleSchuant]

gmcourtney, I've added your data to the sheet. Lots of people have done multiple runs of the SS NLP separated by months as you have and only reported the results of their last run, so I've just put in your last run with some notes about the others.

It's interesting that multiple runs are so common. In the "against" column we can say, people keep fizzling out; in the "for" column we can say, yeah but they come back for another go. I'm not sure this is necessarily related to the SS NLP as such, it's just human behaviour overall, anyone who goes to any kind of gym will see people come, go - and then come back. This is partly their willpower, but also simply life happening, as in gmcourtney's story.

What would be really interesting is to have compliance and retention data for SS NLP compared to other approaches. But this is something few trainers and gyms think to keep track of.

[gmcourtney]

I found myself getting sick of the YNDTFP nonsense, and the idea that if you're not griding to a pulp, you're just a p*ssy, and that I need to be shoveling food to no end.

Is this culture espoused at the SS Denver Gym, or just in their online/Rippetoe content?

Honestly, I have nothing but POSITIVE things to say about the franchise gym in Denver. Both coaches (Jared and Amanda) are great. Amanda ran the time slot that I attended. I know there's a lot of negative opinion around the gyms, and one criticism is that people think it's overpriced for a bar and some plates. Value is very relative, and depends on what you need, expect, and can afford. For myself, I found it very worthwhile to get in person coaching at the beginning.

Also, the gym environment/culture/whatever was great. As a scrawny twerp who had never lifted before in my life, it's intimidating to even walk through the door. I found everyone (coaches and other lifters) to be very supportive and encouraging. It's not "bro-y" or "meathead-y' at all. The gym is about 35 minutes away from where I live, so I had never intended to stay there for the long term. 3 hours of commuting a week to do 3.5-4.5 hours of exercising every week just isn't sustainable for long. The COVID shutdown just pulled that ahead.

My comment you quoted above, was just referring to Rippetoe's online presence. The general tone of the forums, podcast, etc are just a total turn off and something I'd rather avoid. It's a shame, because I'm one of those people who really likes to dig into new topics. I love learning systems, and the rationale behind them. I just never felt comfortable asking questions there. I knew the answer was going to involve: eat more, GOMAD, YNTFP, etc.

[KyleSchuant]

I'm glad to hear you had a good experience, GM. They gave you the tools, now it's up to you to finish the job.

[fibula]

I recently found logs from my earliest "SSLP" and spent some time adding everything to my spreadsheet. Here are my results, hopefully formatted correctly for Kyle's spreadsheet:

Prev training: Yes. Body builder programs, squats/bench involved. "Max OT". Running
Gender: M (constant throughout both runs)
Height: 69 (177cm)

All numbers throughout are 3 sets of 5 numbers.

Run 1 (uncoached):
Age: 31 12/2010 -> 06/2011
Injured in NLP: No
Start BW: 235
End BW: 243.5
End BMI: 36
Squat: 245 -> 362.5
Bench: 185 -> 240
Dead: 300 -> 390
Press: 115 -> 142.5
Power Clean: 135 -> 165
Notes: Had recently dieted off 90lb (low carb) 6 months previously, and was still eating low carb, doing some jogging. Stopped when I lost access to training area

Run 2 (coached):
Age: 38 11/2017 -> 06/2018
Injured in NLP: No
Start BW: 335
End BW: 291
End BMI: 43
Squat: 290 -> 400
Bench: 190 -> 260
Dead: 320 -> 400
Press: 135 -> 169
Power Clean: 135 (not really training)
Notes: Eating 1900 cal/day the entire time, and dropping weight. Could have gone farther with squat, but was having problems with burst blood vessels around (and in) the eyes, so I reduced weight, and concentrated on other lifts

I've been doing another run since last year, while I eat about 1500 cal/day (losing 2lb/week). I'm currently down 90lb, and squatting 315lb (down from a high of 370lb in Dec). I'm planning to shake up my training soon as I try to get my waist down to 32" over the next few months (and keep it there). Notice a weight loss theme in my logs yet?

[KyleSchuant]

Thanks, fibula, that was very thorough. Because they were 7 years apart I just included the second run. Lifting heavy while dropping weight fast is tricky, I hope you'll get some competent coaching to help - even if you've the knowledge yourself, it's hard to be objective.

It's interesting looking at the charts of lifts vs bodyweight in this. At a glance, after about 200lbs it doesn't help SQ/DL much to add weight, but it does help BP/OHP.

By the way, with Fibula's data we're now up to 100 males on the charts.