Push-ups and CVD

[asdf]

Many of you have probably heard about the new study that found an inverse relationship between push-up ability and future cardiovascular "events" -- i.e., the more push-ups you can do, the lower your risk of a future CVD event. There are lots of caveats, of course. The study was conducted on male firefighters, mostly white, just in Indiana.

Also, the authors admit: "Statistical adjustment for age and BMI suggested that some of the risk reduction seen with higher push-up categories was accounted for by these characteristics. There was also evidence that differences in established CVD risk factors (blood pressure, serum lipid levels, and smoking behavior) may explain much of the residual differences in outcome. Nonetheless, the results of this study support an inverse association between push-ups and CVD events among middle-aged men."

Here's the link: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamane ... le/2724778

But I don't really care about any of that. I just wanted to see how well I could do on the test!

What most of the press hasn't made clear is that the push-ups had to be performed on a down/up cadence in sync with an 80 beats per minute metronome. So two beats per push-up: down, up. You can't just blast through a bunch of push-ups and then rest in the plank, blast out more, etc. You have to stay in sync with the metronome. The test goes for 2 minutes, so a max score would be 80.

Well, let me tell you -- because I just did the test -- that metronome sets a pretty miserable pace and your desire to take a break will come surprisingly quickly.

According to the study,

"Clinic staff counted the number of push-ups completed until the participant reached 80, missed 3 or more beats of the metronome, or stopped owing to exhaustion or other symptoms (dizziness, lightheadedness, chest pain, or shortness of breath)."

That differs significantly from the way the test was described in the The Fire Service Joint Labor-Management Wellness-Fitness Initiative (WFI), which the study linked as being the protocol used when the data was first collected starting in 2000. The WFI manual states under "Reasons to Stop the Test... Fails to maintain continuous motion with the metronome cadence." -- so no resting at all!

(Since I'm sure people will ask, yes, the WFI manual specifies form criteria, including depth.)

In the statistical analyses, the results were chunked into intervals of 10 push-ups. So, 0-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, and lastly, 41+

"That's odd," I thought (before I tried the test myself), "where are the 51-60, 61-70, and 71-80 groups?"

Give it a go, kids. I scored a meager 42 following the WFI no-breaks criterion. I'm sure I could have eked out more had I gamed it or started resting for 2 beeps between push-ups. (Note: even by the study's criteria, you can't rest 3. The test ENDS if you miss 3 beats.) For me, staying with the metronome meant that there was a slight pause at the bottom. If I took it again, I might be able to smooth out my cycle. I'm sure I'd get better with practice. Or if I didn't try it after having done heavy jerks earlier in the day. At least I'd like to think so...

Updated to add:
I took the test again, this time smoothing out my reps to reduce the pause at the bottom. After 40, I started taking a two-beep break at the top. Didn't help much. I only got to 51. I think if I try it again in a few days, I could game it all the way to 60. Would love to see someone do 80.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

I'm sure there's a 12-year old who could hit that easy.

I may give this a try at some point.

[perman]

The hidden factor I see when people discuss push-ups is ROM. In the Norwegian Army I learned the chest has to hit the ground to count as a rep, but American army push-ups are until the upper arms are parallel to the ground right? Which totally changes how many reps you can do. So I think there are different push-up norms around...

Rarely when I hear people talk of push-ups above 40 reps are they full ROM in my experience. So if that's you, respect.

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

There's also a standard where the chest has to hit a fist on the ground.

[perman]

There's also a standard where the chest has to hit a fist on the ground.

In my army tests, they were flat hands (I think? May just be stroking my own ego, how would I even know the shape of the hand below...).

[cgeorg]

In gym class, there was a lil counting machine about fist height, under the chest, that counted reps. When I do them now I touch nose to ground (with neutral neck/spine).

[dcw]

In gym class, there was a lil counting machine about fist height, under the chest, that counted reps. When I do them now I touch nose to ground (with neutral neck/spine).

Our academy uses a counting device that’s something ridiculous like 4-6” tall, which significantly reduces the range of motion. The current “record” is 200+, held by a dude with very short arms (shock!). It’s hilariously stupid. Using a set of $5 push-up handles to offset the reduction in ROM would actually make the test better, but whatever, I guess.

What’s worse is that we STILL have people fail to get 25 reps during their PT test.

[iamsmu]

This sounds miserable. Do you have a metronome or just use some kind of app?

[asdf]

The hidden factor I see when people discuss push-ups is ROM.
...
Rarely when I hear people talk of push-ups above 40 reps are they full ROM in my experience. So if that's you, respect.

The protocol used in the study required the participants to contact a 5-inch block on the ground with their chin. It also required a straight back at all times and full extension of the arms at the top.

I didn't use a block for my test. My chest either touched the ground, or came very, very close.

I can definitely do more chest-to-ground push-ups in 2 minutes if I'm allowed to go at my own pace. The tricky part with this test, for me at least, is keeping pace with the metronome and not being able to rest more than 2 beats.

This sounds miserable. Do you have a metronome or just use some kind of app?

https://www.8notes.com/metronome/

[SeanHerbison]

the push-ups had to be performed on a down/up cadence in sync with an 80 beats per minute metronome. So two beats per push-up: down, up. You can't just blast through a bunch of push-ups and then rest in the plank, blast out more, etc. You have to stay in sync with the metronome. The test goes for 2 minutes, so a max score would be 80.

Still sounds better than the Air Force PT test. To max the push-up portion of that (assuming you're male and under 30), it's 1.1 push-ups/second for a minute. And that's the "strength" portion of the test.

[OrderInChaos]

Still sounds better than the Air Force PT test. To max the push-up portion of that (assuming you're male and under 30), it's 1.1 push-ups/second for a minute. And that's the "strength" portion of the test.

I hope the as-yet-not implemented Army test with hand-release pushups and 70 rep max makes its way across the services. 4 more reps in 1 minute longer than that AF test. 22 reps fewer than the Navy's max for a 17-20yo male, same time standard. And actually reasonably standardized so each unit doesn't have its own standard for "That's a pushup, not a head bob"

[mgil]

From looking over the reports I saw on this test and the protocol, I just figured the dudes with the highest scores were the skinniest dudes (of the firemen involved).

Studies like this are why people lol at science. I mean it's an observation, and the facts may be true, but the sample is so biased that it doesn't extrapolate well at all.

[asdf]

Still sounds better than the Air Force PT test. To max the push-up portion of that (assuming you're male and under 30), it's 1.1 push-ups/second for a minute.

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. Until I actually tried the metronome test. For me at least, it's MUCH easier to go faster. I can actually get more reps in the 1-min AF-style test than in the 2-min metronome-style. Give it a try and report back!

[asdf]

From looking over the reports I saw on this test and the protocol, I just figured the dudes with the highest scores were the skinniest dudes (of the firemen involved).

Studies like this are why people lol at science. I mean it's an observation, and the facts may be true, but the sample is so biased that it doesn't extrapolate well at all.

What the study actually found was that push-up capacity correlates with a lot more than just bodyweight. Quoting from the study:

As summarized in Table 1, push-up capacity was found to be significantly inversely associated with most of the baseline risk factor variables that we examined (age, P < .001; BMI, P < .001; systolic blood pressure, P < .001; diastolic blood pressure, P < .001; total cholesterol level, P = .02; low-density lipoprotein cholesterol level, P = .04; triglycerides, P < .001; glucose level, P < .001; and smoking status, P < .001), although it was significantly positively associated with the estimated V˙ O2max (P < .001).

Seems to me that's a lot of bang for a simple 2-minute test that literally costs nothing.

[mgil]

Seems to me that's a lot of bang for a simple 2-minute test that literally costs nothing.

True.

I am interested in the histograms of the data. Since the population is really homogeneous, I'm wondering if there is simply correlation of factors that resulted in two basic groups of people: those with healthy lifestyles and not. The panel results correlate well with good nutrition and activity level with smoking being a (typically) related condition. Funny that the results are inversely related with age in that they were tracking the relationship between performance and mortality factors and kept age in the mix. Typically being young does present itself as being a lower risk of dying.

[SeanHerbison]

Still sounds better than the Air Force PT test. To max the push-up portion of that (assuming you're male and under 30), it's 1.1 push-ups/second for a minute.

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. Until I actually tried the metronome test. For me at least, it's MUCH easier to go faster. I can actually get more reps in the 1-min AF-style test than in the 2-min metronome-style. Give it a try and report back!

I'm not saying it's easier, just that it's a better test. Anything you can/have to knock out more than one per second on is more about how fast you can move than strength. The metronome pacing at least changes that to muscular endurance.

[mgil]

The metronome pacing at least changes that to muscular endurance.

That and starts to rely heavily on cardiovascular health.

[ohlol]

The hidden factor I see when people discuss push-ups is ROM. In the Norwegian Army I learned the chest has to hit the ground to count as a rep, but American army push-ups are until the upper arms are parallel to the ground right? Which totally changes how many reps you can do. So I think there are different push-up norms around...

Rarely when I hear people talk of push-ups above 40 reps are they full ROM in my experience. So if that's you, respect.

yeah but eddie didn't use an elephant bar

[perman]

The hidden factor I see when people discuss push-ups is ROM. In the Norwegian Army I learned the chest has to hit the ground to count as a rep, but American army push-ups are until the upper arms are parallel to the ground right? Which totally changes how many reps you can do. So I think there are different push-up norms around...

Rarely when I hear people talk of push-ups above 40 reps are they full ROM in my experience. So if that's you, respect.

yeah but eddie didn't use an elephant bar

Sure this is the post you meant to make that reply to?

[iamsmu]

Good lord that's difficult. It forces you to slow down the eccentric. I could only get 37 (chest to ground). I thought I counted to 39 but video only shows 37. Arms felt like they would fall off.

Edit: PSA: I'm trying to press after that push up test. Bad idea. It completely ruined me for pressing. . . .