Jourdan Delacruz

[mbasic]

American style

not a thing^

but yeah, learned bad habits are hard to break after 1000's or reps

[Testiclaw]

For what it's worth, this is one of my beginner gals.

We want more extension in the legs and she needs to keep the bar close after contact and explosion, but there are a few key things here we've hammered into her right away;

Feet flat through contact and power position.

Shoulders go up, not back.

Vertical drive and extension.

[asdf]

there are a few key things here we've hammered into her right away...

Yeah, well, don't forget to work on her delts and traps at some point. They're tiny!

[Testiclaw]

there are a few key things here we've hammered into her right away...

Yeah, well, don't forget to work on her delts and traps at some point. They're tiny!

We've actually stopped working on them right now!

Her upper body overpowers her legs, and we're battling to get her mobility where it needs to be, so a lot of her "fluff" volume has been restricted in place of dedicated mobility work.

Her leg strength has been a big focus for us...she was stuck in bed for two years dealing with 3 hip surgeries, one was for osteonecrosis of her left femur.

So we've had to dedicate a ton of time to rehabbing her from one surgery after the next, building range of motion, work capacity, and all of the mental obstacles that go along with that. We're finally at a point where her leg strength and durability are good enough to really start turning that into power and explosion, and learning how to be a weightlifter.

She's done a fantastic job of not losing her mind completely.

[OCG]

Like, if Bergener teaches the snatch overhead position needs to have externally-rotated arms, and the rest of the world teaches the direct, explicit opposite... nobody here seems to ask why? If Americans are the only weightlifters who almost exclusively do powers the day before a competition and never work up to their openers in the warmup room...but almost every other country does the opposite...nobody here seems to ask why?

So, internal shoulder rotation over the head is elbows back right? And external is elbows forwards? I always forget which way it goes.

[Testiclaw]

Like, if Bergener teaches the snatch overhead position needs to have externally-rotated arms, and the rest of the world teaches the direct, explicit opposite... nobody here seems to ask why? If Americans are the only weightlifters who almost exclusively do powers the day before a competition and never work up to their openers in the warmup room...but almost every other country does the opposite...nobody here seems to ask why?

So, internal shoulder rotation over the head is elbows back right? And external is elbows forwards? I always forget which way it goes.

Bingo, yep.

Internal is turning your thumbs down, external is turning your thumbs up.

[OCG]

Like, if Bergener teaches the snatch overhead position needs to have externally-rotated arms, and the rest of the world teaches the direct, explicit opposite... nobody here seems to ask why? If Americans are the only weightlifters who almost exclusively do powers the day before a competition and never work up to their openers in the warmup room...but almost every other country does the opposite...nobody here seems to ask why?

So, internal shoulder rotation over the head is elbows back right? And external is elbows forwards? I always forget which way it goes.

Bingo, yep.

Internal is turning your thumbs down, external is turning your thumbs up.

Personally, and maybe I'm weird, but, holding weight overhead feels waaaaaayyy better internally rotating and squeezing my shoulder blades together/shrugging. I went from dicking around sorta being able to overhead squat, to being able to do one easily. Much easier position to be in and I feel much more flexible. Does not one just dick around with this shit and figure out what feels good/more efficient?

[Testiclaw]

Like, if Bergener teaches the snatch overhead position needs to have externally-rotated arms, and the rest of the world teaches the direct, explicit opposite... nobody here seems to ask why? If Americans are the only weightlifters who almost exclusively do powers the day before a competition and never work up to their openers in the warmup room...but almost every other country does the opposite...nobody here seems to ask why?

So, internal shoulder rotation over the head is elbows back right? And external is elbows forwards? I always forget which way it goes.

Bingo, yep.

Internal is turning your thumbs down, external is turning your thumbs up.

Personally, and maybe I'm weird, but, holding weight overhead feels waaaaaayyy better internally rotating and squeezing my shoulder blades together/shrugging. I went from dicking around sorta being able to overhead squat, to being able to do one easily. Much easier position to be in and I feel much more flexible. Does not one just dick around with this shit and figure out what feels good/more efficient?

I honestly don't know. Everybody... EVERYBODY I've ever taught to snatch or overhead squat has become proficient and fluent with an internally rotated and pinched/shrugged position.

It lets you carry the weight with the stronger, larger muscles of the upper back.

It puts to bar farther back over the base of the neck.

It allows a fair amount of movement in order to balance if the snatch isn't too good and save a lift while externally rotated arms restrict this.

I don't understand why there are still American weightlifting coaches who not only allow a very externally rotated position...but teach it as the correct way.

[OCG]

Like, if Bergener teaches the snatch overhead position needs to have externally-rotated arms, and the rest of the world teaches the direct, explicit opposite... nobody here seems to ask why? If Americans are the only weightlifters who almost exclusively do powers the day before a competition and never work up to their openers in the warmup room...but almost every other country does the opposite...nobody here seems to ask why?

So, internal shoulder rotation over the head is elbows back right? And external is elbows forwards? I always forget which way it goes.

Bingo, yep.

Internal is turning your thumbs down, external is turning your thumbs up.

Personally, and maybe I'm weird, but, holding weight overhead feels waaaaaayyy better internally rotating and squeezing my shoulder blades together/shrugging. I went from dicking around sorta being able to overhead squat, to being able to do one easily. Much easier position to be in and I feel much more flexible. Does not one just dick around with this shit and figure out what feels good/more efficient?

I honestly don't know. Everybody... EVERYBODY I've ever taught to snatch or overhead squat has become proficient and fluent with an internally rotated and pinched/shrugged position.

It lets you carry the weight with the stronger, larger muscles of the upper back.

It puts to bar farther back over the base of the neck.

It allows a fair amount of movement in order to balance if the snatch isn't too good and save a lift while externally rotated arms restrict this.

I don't understand why there are still American weightlifting coaches who not only allow a very externally rotated position...but teach it as the correct way.

Anatomically even it makes sense. The position we want the arms to be in, internal rotation requires less flexibility from the lats and everything else. Pinching the shoulder blades brings the shoulder socket further backwards which also puts us in a position where we can lean over more and keep the bar balanced.

[asdf]

I don't understand why there are still American weightlifting coaches who not only allow a very externally rotated position...but teach it as the correct way.

Obviously, I don't understand the anatomy, physics, or coaching trends as well as you. But I watched a Burgener video and read an Everett article and I think there's a bit of miscommunication going on. Or maybe in the case of Burgener, misspeaking. Everett addresses some of that at the start of his article:

Finally, bear in mind that IR/ER occurs at the glenohumeral joint—it’s the arm rotating in the shallow cup of the shoulder blade that it sits in. It does NOT involve protraction and retraction of the shoulder blade—any arguments against internal or external rotation that cite protraction/retraction of the scapulae as the problem with a given position are confusing the issue improperly (e.g. don’t internally rotate because the shoulder will roll/collapse forward; that’s not internal rotation of the arm, it’s unwanted movement of the shoulder blade unnecessary to achieve internal/external rotation).

In the Burgener video, he seemed to be making the very mistake that Everett cited above -- i.e., he was arguing that if you "internally rotate" then your shoulders will roll forward and you'll lose the bar forward. That's why he's always cuing "show me your arm pits."

Maybe these aren't the coaches you're thinking of, but I'd be curious if you agree or disagree with Everett's analysis/explanation/terminology.

https://www.catalystathletics.com/artic ... ch-Really/

[Testiclaw]

I don't understand why there are still American weightlifting coaches who not only allow a very externally rotated position...but teach it as the correct way.

Obviously, I don't understand the anatomy, physics, or coaching trends as well as you. But I watched a Burgener video and read an Everett article and I think there's a bit of miscommunication going on. Or maybe in the case of Burgener, misspeaking. Everett addresses some of that at the start of his article:

Finally, bear in mind that IR/ER occurs at the glenohumeral joint—it’s the arm rotating in the shallow cup of the shoulder blade that it sits in. It does NOT involve protraction and retraction of the shoulder blade—any arguments against internal or external rotation that cite protraction/retraction of the scapulae as the problem with a given position are confusing the issue improperly (e.g. don’t internally rotate because the shoulder will roll/collapse forward; that’s not internal rotation of the arm, it’s unwanted movement of the shoulder blade unnecessary to achieve internal/external rotation).

In the Burgener video, he seemed to be making the very mistake that Everett cited above -- i.e., he was arguing that if you "internally rotate" then your shoulders will roll forward and you'll lose the bar forward. That's why he's always cuing "show me your arm pits."

Maybe these aren't the coaches you're thinking of, but I'd be curious if you agree or disagree with Everett's analysis/explanation/terminology.

https://www.catalystathletics.com/artic ... ch-Really/

Yeah, Bergener explicitly states that external rotation is the correct position, and internal rotation is incorrect. I think he's absolutely wrong.

I think that Everett is closer to correct, but still hedging somewhat. I also think it's a matter of understanding intent versus outcome. The intent is to internally rotate and shrug/pinch, although what happens with max loads might not be as exaggerated as lighter weights.

But that's a weird argument to be making. Knees collapse on heavy clean recoveries...so why don't we do that all of the time, for submaximal sets?

Shoulders end up behind the bar during max lifts...why don't we cue "throw the shoulders back and behind the bar" for submaximal lifts?

I think Everett is a sharp guy, but his biggest fault is he was mentored by a very macho American coach who tried to figure everything out on his own back in the day and hasn't learned anything since 1970.

So I agree with Everett to a point, but also think he misses quite a bit, namely deliberate positioning versus artifacts of maximal loads. And, how the difference between the two is something we account for in training.

[asdf]

Thanks for all that, @Testiclaw

Are there any American WL coaches you think are doing things right? (I may have asked you that before.)

[Testiclaw]

Thanks for all that, @Testiclaw

Are there any American WL coaches you think are doing things right? (I may have asked you that before.)

I think Max Aita is solid, and not just because he's from here, with the stuff he puts out and his way of structuring training and positioning.

Outside of him...not really, no. I've been extremely disappointed in American coaches, methodology, practices, etc.

It's been exceedingly depressing, to be honest. I'm not a weightlifter, I never was. I'm entering this world very, very late. I'm terrified that I don't know what I'm doing, and have just managed to "fail forward" in terms of training. I'm doing everything I can to try and figure this whole sport out, and there hasn't been anybody in this country that has been able to explain things to a point that seem convincing.

[asdf]

I think Max Aita is solid, and not just because he's from here, with the stuff he puts out and his way of structuring training and positioning.

I've seen lots of his videos, but haven't read any of his books. I'll take a look.

Any coaches that you can recommend for the USAW Level 2 seminar?

[Testiclaw]

I think Max Aita is solid, and not just because he's from here, with the stuff he puts out and his way of structuring training and positioning.

I've seen lots of his videos, but haven't read any of his books. I'll take a look.

Any coaches that you can recommend for the USAW Level 2 seminar?

Michael McKenna!

[asdf]

Michael McKenna!

Thanks. Anyone on the west coast?

[Testiclaw]

Michael McKenna!

Thanks. Anyone on the west coast?

Not that I can think of...but depending on how many people you have he can travel.

[Testiclaw]

While we're on the topic of coaching problems.."arms are ropes".

This is a gigantic problem in America, and can help explain part of why so many lifters have their cleans absolutely crash on them: they're disconnected from the bar after explosion.

The idea that the arms are ropes and stay relaxed, and that everything in the clean is taken care of by the shrug, leads to lifters being completely separate from the barbell after explosion.

The arms are long and loose until it's time for contact and the third pull, where they are ACTIVE and VIOLENT.

This is just another example of bad juju.

[Testiclaw]

Chatting with the wife she said something simplifying:. "when I think ropes I think floating and falling".

[asdf]

I think "arms as ropes" is okay to help with an early arm bend, but to say that you "press your body under the barbell" is very strange. It's clearly a PULL under, at which point your arms are not "ropes." Also, do you teach and cue the shrug? For me, it's always been something that happens naturally. No need to even discuss.