Exodus Strength

quikky wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:02 am *snip*

Thanks. I think I'm going to run this almost as written, with some exercise substitutions (I have to shoehorn belt squats in there somehow, they've been doing wonders for my legs). Deadlifting with less volume sounds great too, my all time best pull resulted from barely any conventional deadlifting and yet I've been hammering conventional deadlift with considerable volume for a while with really disappointing results.

janoycresva wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:50 pm

quikky wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:02 am *snip*

Thanks. I think I'm going to run this almost as written, with some exercise substitutions (I have to shoehorn belt squats in there somehow, they've been doing wonders for my legs). Deadlifting with less volume sounds great too, my all time best pull resulted from barely any conventional deadlifting and yet I've been hammering conventional deadlift with considerable volume for a while with really disappointing results.

Some tips from my experience:

1. Don't do RP sets immediately. Do 1 week with just 1 set to RPE 8-9, just to get used to all the movements and the structure. Then do another week with just 1 set to failure. Then either do 1 follow-up set, or jump straight into RP, depending on how it all feels.

2. Good belt squats, hack squats, or leg presses, are even better than squatting 2x a week. I am doing this in my home gym, so I have to use barbell lifts out of necessity. Depending on how you normally prefer to squat, and what the mechanics of your belt squat are, I would try to make it so that one is more posterior biased, and the other more quad biased. For example, if you squat low bar, then drop the SSB squat and do belts instead. With belt squats, you can probably do even higher RPE, or even go to full form failure, with just 1 set at first, eventually doing 2, if needed.

3. I still have mixed thoughts on deadlifts from a hypertrophy SFR standpoint. I almost think just RDLs and/or SLDLs are superior. Play around with them and see how they work for you. I dropped them as an experiment about a month ago and my RDLs shot up. Could simply be fatigue dissipation but I am not quite sure either way yet. From a pure strength standpoint, I have had the best success with deads doing them at lower reps and moderate volumes, like 3x4, 4x4 type of deal, often with a top set followed by backoffs. However, that is in the context of a pure SBDP routine.

4. It might be enticing to think this super low volume routine is easy. It is not. It is simply a different type of hard. If you find it easy, you are screwing around. You should have very manageable fatigue, and hard but shorter and more varied sessions. It is also important to focus on proper muscle stimulus, and not just lifting more weight. If you're squatting, really make sure you are doing super high quality hard reps. You are not doing many, so make them all count. Especially true for the non-big lift work: do not think of anything as an "accessory" or some BS you throw in after the "real" lifts. Approach leg extensions with the same intensity as your squats.

DCR wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 12:40 pm quikky, I’m glad that I asked - thank you for the detailed responses. I am so fucking sick of being in the gym forever (concededly, my insistence on not lifting two days in a row, and my tendency to not just push through warm ups without unnecessary rests is a large part of the issue), and there’s some nostalgia in this for me too - I’m gonna give it a go.

Your initial response sent me down two rabbitholes late last night, one regarding DC training, and the other into Dorian Yates’ old stuff, as I recalled him being an RP advocate. I actually found one article in which he claimed that he got the concept from Mentzer, and that Dante got it from him. Probably not true, given that they seemed to be working it out in nearly the same time frame, but interesting. I had forgotten about, and was particularly fascinated by, given my renewed interested in paused reps, his insistence on removing all momentum from a rep other than intentional cheat reps (and by “cheat,” he appears essentially to have meant a normal touch and go rep for nearly anyone else).

Yeah, no worries. Glad it sparked some interest. I have had the same experience as you in terms of jumping into this rabbit hole a few months back. It's just such a different training approach than what I am used to and what I have been told is effective. I was fairly hesitant to try it, and kind of thought worst case it will just be a break from my normal training. Then as the results came, I was (and still am) kind of baffled. Plus, it's legit been fun. I always enjoyed bro training and this has taken me back to my roots, but this time with better results, and leg days

@quikky What is the best resource you found on DC Training?

JohnHelton wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:01 pm @quikky What is the best resource you found on DC Training?

Honestly, I don't have one. I have read up on lots of varying sources, including online coaches, forums, random web sites, Andy Baker, etc., and put together my own version of it*, and gave it a shot.

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* - What I have outlined is not true DC training. DC training that is supposedly direct from Dante Trudel usually has a different structure. Namely, the hardest lifts are last in the workout, you do the workouts 3 days a week, not 4, using an alternating A/B pattern, you employ extreme stretching, etc. My version is really a 4 day upper lower split inspired by DC principles, if you want to be accurate. That's why I wanted to point out that I am not an expert on this at all, but rather someone that has recently had some great success with the main principles.

quikky wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:19 pm

JohnHelton wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:01 pm @quikky What is the best resource you found on DC Training?

Honestly, I don't have one. I have read up on lots of varying sources, including online coaches, forums, random web sites, Andy Baker, etc., and put together my own version of it*, and gave it a shot.

---

* - What I have outlined is not true DC training. DC training that is supposedly direct from Dante Trudel usually has a different structure. Namely, the hardest lifts are last in the workout, you do the workouts 3 days a week, not 4, using an alternating A/B pattern, you employ extreme stretching, etc. My version is really a 4 day upper lower split inspired by DC principles, if you want to be accurate. That's why I wanted to point out that I am not an expert on this at all, but rather someone that has recently had some great success with the main principles.

Fair enough. I could see using the same for accessory type work. Seems like a good way to get it done fast. Incidentally Jim Wendler talks about doing rest, pause back off sets in Beyond 531. I guess this stuff has been around for quite a while at this point.

JohnHelton wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:47 pm I guess this stuff has been around for quite a while at this point.

Rest pause has been around for decades.

trying to progress without overshooting RPE. its challenging bc for me, the same weights always feel the same heavy, so if i used RPE properly i would stay at the same weight for ever. thats why i will increase the weights, and just re calibrate my rpe scale. im begining to view RPE and autoregulation as two seperate things. RPE: a fairly accurate scale of performance and how far away from failure you train. Autoregulation: determining the load for the session based on how you feel subjectively

cole wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:51 pm trying to progress without overshooting RPE. its challenging bc for me, the same weights always feel the same heavy, so if i used RPE properly i would stay at the same weight for ever. thats why i will increase the weights, and just re calibrate my rpe scale. im begining to view RPE and autoregulation as two seperate things. RPE: a fairly accurate scale of performance and how far away from failure you train. Autoregulation: determining the load for the session based on how you feel subjectively

I feel like I've come to the same conclusion as well. I get overly aggressive on weight jumps when I judge my own RPE so I just track it for when I go back to see my progress. I used to be against things like AMRAPs (I don't know why), but from having done Nuckols benching program, I realized that it allows me to actually find my failure limit and determine e1RMs without subjective ideas like "was that a 7 or an 8" in my head. Even decided to start doing Front Squats with AMRAPs once a week as well. Will see how that experiment goes.

SnakePlissken wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 3:24 pm

cole wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 2:51 pm trying to progress without overshooting RPE. its challenging bc for me, the same weights always feel the same heavy, so if i used RPE properly i would stay at the same weight for ever. thats why i will increase the weights, and just re calibrate my rpe scale. im begining to view RPE and autoregulation as two seperate things. RPE: a fairly accurate scale of performance and how far away from failure you train. Autoregulation: determining the load for the session based on how you feel subjectively

I feel like I've come to the same conclusion as well. I get overly aggressive on weight jumps when I judge my own RPE so I just track it for when I go back to see my progress. I used to be against things like AMRAPs (I don't know why), but from having done Nuckols benching program, I realized that it allows me to actually find my failure limit and determine e1RMs without subjective ideas like "was that a 7 or an 8" in my head. Even decided to start doing Front Squats with AMRAPs once a week as well. Will see how that experiment goes.

Yeah. I'm liking an AMRAP for judging strength. I've gone back to 5/3/1 for the first time in about 5 years. It is really a couple light sets followed by an AMRAP. Once that is done, it is pretty free form in terms of backoff work. I'm calculating my e1RM both with and without considering the reps in reserve. I'm also being a bit conservative on the AMRAPs. No @10 sets. I've done a lot of training with heavy singles in the past, and I think that work is great leading up to a meet. But I'm also always amazed at how time consuming a single can be. Also, singles can be hard to judge for me. I find an AMRAP easier to judge because you can feel the fatigue building. There are more data points.

I haven't trained with any sort of plan for about 2 years though find a few *hard* sets (1-3 RIR) for squat and bench have maintained ~95% of my 1RM. It's easier to apply squatting as I haven't had knee aids in years though my elbows are forever playing up (I probably aggravate them squatting).

I like just taking a weight at 80-95% of my e1RM and taking it to 7-9 RPE so not doing any HVLF stuff at present.

@quikky Echoing the gratitude for the intro to DC methods.

Tried the protocol on curls and skull crushers last week and literally got comments from two family members.

Also possibly related, I got asked by a few teenagers on Halloween how much I bench. No one has ever asked me that before and I didn't expect anyone to in my lifetime rofl.

Probably will try "full" DC on my next bulk. Definitely more time efficient for current bro work than the supersets I was doing though which is a huge win.

Thanks!

FredM wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:12 am @quikky Echoing the gratitude for the intro to DC methods.

Tried the protocol on curls and skull crushers last week and literally got comments from two family members.

Also possibly related, I got asked by a few teenagers on Halloween how much I bench. No one has ever asked me that before and I didn't expect anyone to in my lifetime rofl.

Probably will try "full" DC on my next bulk. Definitely more time efficient for current bro work than the supersets I was doing though which is a huge win.

Thanks!

Cool, glad you liked it so far!

FredM wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:12 am Definitely more time efficient for current bro work than the supersets

How much of a time savings did you get vs your supersets?

SnakePlissken wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:10 am

FredM wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:12 am Definitely more time efficient for current bro work than the supersets

How much of a time savings did you get vs your supersets?

4 sets of bi/tri/back or chest 12-15 reps takes me about 10-12 min

Doing them with 10,2,2 dc protocol took like 5 min.

FredM wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:03 am

SnakePlissken wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:10 am

FredM wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:12 am Definitely more time efficient for current bro work than the supersets

How much of a time savings did you get vs your supersets?

4 sets of bi/tri/back or chest 12-15 reps takes me about 10-12 min

Doing them with 10,2,2 dc protocol took like 5 min.

That's a lot of time saving! I feel like my old post about how I thought leg fluff work was sucking for me may need something like this when I finish my Bench focus.

SnakePlissken wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:26 am

FredM wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 6:03 am

SnakePlissken wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:10 am

FredM wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:12 am Definitely more time efficient for current bro work than the supersets

How much of a time savings did you get vs your supersets?

4 sets of bi/tri/back or chest 12-15 reps takes me about 10-12 min

Doing them with 10,2,2 dc protocol took like 5 min.

That's a lot of time saving! I feel like my old post about how I thought leg fluff work was sucking for me may need something like this when I finish my Bench focus.

Yeah. The supersets are still comparably "time efficient" overall I think because they're decent cardio, whereas DC definitely isn't. But I just started a new job and am finally ready to commit to body comp so this is a much better fit.

I had a similar revelation with BSS drop sets (John Meadows suggestion). I haven't done them in a while but am going to do them every week with DC for chins, dips, bis and tris I think. Basically I just AMRAP with a 55 lb kb then AMRAP with a 35 lb kb then AMRAP with BW. Similar time efficiency.

Btw, DC and rest-pause sets are not the same thing. DC utilizes RP quite a bit, but it's a whole program and training approach that goes beyond RP.

Some more details (one of many from the Googles): https://muscleandbrawn.com/workouts/a-c ... -training/

forgot how much i liked snatch grip deadlifts, they feel more like squats than my actual squats do

janoycresva wrote: ↑Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:00 pm forgot how much i liked snatch grip deadlifts, they feel more like squats than my actual squats do

Samesies, and SGRDLs hit my adductors insanely hard.