RPE Megathread: The Sweet Smell of Easy.

[MikeTuchscherer]

So, as I'm sure you already know, conceptually the idea behind myo reps is that you're utilizing fatigue to skip straight to the last effective reps of the set. As I understand it, there is more research lately backing this idea of "effective reps".

I definitely agree with the underlying principle (namely, using fatigue to lower the recruitment threshold of high-threshold motor units). The activation set does this. And it makes a lot of sense.

But the activation set also fatigues the high-threshold motor units themselves. By rushing the follow-on mini-sets using a "5 breath protocol" I'm basically assuring the easily-fatigued, high-threshold MUs remain fatigued/offline.

To me, it just makes sense to wait an additional 30 seconds between mini-sets to ensure the large, easily fatigued motor units are back online.

This is another details thing... For me, I rest 5 breaths but I game that shit. Five deep, slow breaths. I probably cheater it out to 30 seconds.

[neandrewthal]

I find the 5 breaths thing is sort of like autoregulation in reverse. If I''m gassed from the activation set (fuck you front squats) 5 deep breaths will be fast. If I'm not (I love you close-grip bench) I can cheater out 5 breaths forever. But it's in the first scenario that I actually need to rest longer.

[Hanley]

I probably cheater it out to 30 seconds.

That's awesome. I will give the Mike T cheater breaths a try.

[Hanley]

5 deep breaths will be fast.

Actually. Now you've got me considering the fact that I'm at ~5000ft. Basically it feels like I'm drowning after near max-effort sets.

[augeleven]

Am I the only one who is taking an 8-10 second deep breath? A full and complete inhalation and exhalation? Even if I rush the breath it's still like 5-6 seconds. Too much low brass playing as a child?

ETA: I'm at sea level

[TimK]

Am I the only one who is taking an 8-10 second deep breath? A full and complete inhalation and exhalation? Even if I rush the breath it's still like 5-6 seconds. Too much low brass playing as a child?

ETA: I'm at sea level

I can't breath like that right after finishing the activation set. My natural inclination is to hyperventilate (not really but in comparison to the super deep slow breath that's what it seems like).

[RyanHartigan]

By the time I manage to get back on my feet and brush the vomit off it's probably been more than 30 seconds.

[RobUK]

Am I the only one who is taking an 8-10 second deep breath? A full and complete inhalation and exhalation? Even if I rush the breath it's still like 5-6 seconds. Too much low brass playing as a child?

ETA: I'm at sea level

I only use Myo reps for easier movements so I don't have the being out of breath problem but I thought my deep 5 second breaths were looong - 8-10 seconds?!

[Allentown]

Yeah, I did a 3-count on each inhale & exhale last night, but that was also during curls.
I'm more on Hanley's side when it comes to myo-reps for the big movements like squats.

[MattimusMaximus]

I can't breath like that right after finishing the activation set. My natural inclination is to hyperventilate (not really but in comparison to the super deep slow breath that's what it seems like).

Anything above 5-6 reps gets me winded... but I also do nothing for cardio lol. Myo-reps feel like death but at least it's over quickly, though I'd hate to use Myo for main lifts. I don't think I'll do that to myself

[Bliss]

Myo-rep bench and CGBP were surprisingly good, lotsa pump. Arguably better than DB's because you don't have to deal with getting in position 6 times.

Also tried the following approach for timing to take the stress out of counting and trying to breath slower etc.

Do activation set. Start timer.
Starting at 1 min, so a 3-5 rep mini set EMOM. Workers out to around 30 40 second rests.

Hanley approved, too.

[Hanley]

Starting at 1 min, so a 3-5 rep mini set EMOM. Workers out to around 30 40 second rests

On behalf of your pool of high-threshold-quick-to-fatigue-heavily-alactic-anaerobic-motor-units, I thank you

[BenM]

I definitely agree with the underlying principle (namely, using fatigue to lower the recruitment threshold of high-threshold motor units). The activation set does this. And it makes a lot of sense.

But the activation set also fatigues the high-threshold motor units themselves. By rushing the follow-on mini-sets using a "5 breath protocol" I'm basically assuring the easily-fatigued, high-threshold MUs remain fatigued/offline.

To me, it just makes sense to wait an additional 30 seconds between mini-sets to ensure the large, easily fatigued motor units are back online.

...

I really like:

- activation set, then 5-12 minute density block (scale time to get near MRV for the movement).

Doing it this way ^ relies on the lifter's intuition to pace the mini-set and inter-mini-set rest.

So, a Hanley-style version of the old 20-rep-squats routine might be something like:
* load 65% 1RM
* one set to RPE 9 (about 12 reps), rack and wait 60 seconds
* N minute density block targeting about 3 reps/minute (i.e. 7 minutes, 21 more reps)
* using about 60s rests between micro-sets, and avoiding grinding except on the very last set

And a "squats and milk" hypertrophy program might schedule such a squat day 1x/week, with escalating duration on the density block every week. Another day you'd do a bunch of 4s and 3s with a heavier weights, and maybe just a heavy single on a 3rd day.

I'm very much going to try something like this for myself, when I start bulking again.

I like this idea too.

Having done 20 rep squats last night I think I might try this instead next week. It's gotta be easier to keep form in check - I find I am getting too much lower back flexion in the later reps of the 20s.

[RyanHartigan]

Bumping because I've done some more back alley human subject research.

Athlete history is sub 300 Wilks SL/TM, then moving to RTS style block to prep for 5/13/18 meet then more and more customized block periodization for the following 3 meets and an attempt at a block with an ES overlay for the most recent meet discussed in this post:


We had been having a frustrating experience where every time we had finished a successful development block with good ERM trends, moving into transmutation + peak block would often result in stagnation and decline, right when we needed peak performance:


Whenever intensity went up and competition lifts dropped below ~25 reps per slot, ~350-400 lifts per week, ERMs would stagnate after a week or two for 4-6 weeks before dipping bigly. Peak timing was also and issue in that peak performance was either late or early and the data we had showed 30 exposures for the squat, 60 for bench and 10 for deadlift which ends up being 9/11/4 weeks respectively on the templates we had been having success with. A rough plan to time these peaks and guide the broader programming was drafted up:


This translated into a program where NL was kept above ~350 pretty much all the way up to the hard taper in 14/15. The rep schemes were picked as the athlete had experience doing them with positive results, and there was room to go down a handful of sets if necessary without crossing that 25NL threshold. BFR/Metabolite work was reqeusted and snappy singles @7 were used to monitor ERMs and hopefully keep them from trending down by providing some low taxing moderately specific practice. The program is a little bit jumbled because it's effectively 3x programs run concurrently, the excel spreadsheet should make it easier to dissect. Program available here:


The TRAC data is interesting, I note that tonnage is a completely useless metric, the athlete is particularly good at rating RPE and the stock RPE table is consistently around -5kgs on the bench press and -10kgs on the squat and the deadlift, the NL data shows that after a long development block only 1-2 weeks are needed to get a good peak out of a taper and basing training around moderate and low intensities worked well with only a handful of lifts in the 85%+ zones. TRAC Reports:


In reality bench peaked early which made it line up around about what the squat would have been, so I still wonder if that was just the fuzz of the data we had or if the peak is a system wide thing. I also noticed that the deadlift is half of the squat, so whether or not that is a mistake and all of the lifts line up after around 9 weeks of hard training would be interesting.

Has anyone experimented with speeding up or slowing down exposures and seeing it peak times changed accordingly? I would like to experiment with it but I don't see how in reality you could get away with cramming the work without frying yourself and I expect that lengthening it significantly would get a much less desirable result.

I think it's also worth noting that you can have pretty impressive results over the course of 12-18 months with little to no weight gain. The differences in weigh-ins are attributable to unauthorised cutting for greater IPF score vs being reflective of actual weight on the platform.

[Hanley]

^ very generally, you might try to get more of an inverse trend of relative intensity & avg RPE.

IOW: when you're working in 65-75% zone keep RPEs around 7-8. When you work with 75-85%, work more in RPE 5-6 zone (gasp!!).

Throw in some supramax work so heavy loads aren't spooky.

[sterjs]

Other Templates
Here are a handful of public templates you might like to use as a starting point to base your own training on, see what you respond to and build training plans off. (in no particular order.)

Project Momentum 2016: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10gS ... RzT2lE/pub

Project Momentum 2017:

[perman]

Wasn't project momentum supposed to be a yearly thing where Mike T tested out some thing with free programs for actual strong lifters? Why did it stop (at least my puny googling only revealed 2016 and 2017)?

[alek]

Anyone else see that deadlift single at 720 by Austin? He said he’s kept all training @7 or lower leading up to it if I’m not mistaken.

[Hanley]

Anyone else see that deadlift single at 720 by Austin?

That was ridiculous.

Didn't even look true-1RM-y.

[alek]

Anyone else see that deadlift single at 720 by Austin?

That was ridiculous.

Didn't even look true-1RM-y.

I don’t think his eyes even popped out of his head.