Snatch form check

[Testiclaw]

As in don't do a complex with them, or just stick with one for a while, then introduce the next into the workout?

I wouldn't put them in a complex just yet...instead I'd treat them as separate exercises to perform.

One day you might do something like this;

Muscle Snatch (no-touch, no-hook) 3x5 (as your primer)

Snatch from power position + Overhead Squat (2+2) x 5-8

Deficit Halting Snatch DL 4-5 sets of 5 reps


Your second day might look like;

Drop Snatch + Tall Snatch (3+3) x 3-4 sets (as your primer)

Snatch (no-touch, no-feet) 6-8 sets of 3 reps

Snatch Balance 5x3


Very simple, but you'd work on progress each movement individually. If you can perform snatch balances well you can keep pushing them. If it takes you longer to dial in your muscle snatches and halting pulls, then you keep working on them even though they might lag behind for a while.

But there isn't a reason to keep from progressing on the parts of the lift that you're able to. Putting it together will happen down the road, no need to keep everything static because one or two areas of the full lift give you trouble.

The big idea is to experiment with variations that force you to perform in a way that fixes what needs fixing, and allows you to feel and strengthen proper mechanics. The hard part is two-fold: first, you have to perform the variations correctly. Second, not everybody responds the same way to the same movements.

Build your weaknesses, sure, but exploit the strengths, too.

Thank you for this. I trained right before I got this, so I just progressed with weight with Tall Snatches, Muscle Snatches, then no contact no feet Snatches. Got to 125 and did 5 doubles to get a feel for them. Was still pulling too hard and caught everything high, and had to think really hard about pulling under. Should I continue working these relatively light, or get the weight up so I can get better pull under reaction from the bar?
Here's set 5, then I'll quit bugging you so much :

So those don't look too shabby for your first attempt, to be honest. There's a lot to like. Rep one is better than rep two.

One of the problems that's keeping you from being able to make receiving the bar and sitting into an overhead squat is that you catch with your knees forward and hips underneath you. Your hips, in addition to not overextending during a proper pull, will "retreat" as soon as extension is completed.

A great drill to do to understand and feel this can be found in this video:



After watching that video, take a look at the movement you do as you pull under the bar...



Rather than your hips retreating and entering an overhead squat position, you keep the knees forward and and slide the hips forward. When you catch the bar your torso is upright, hips underneath you (like a jerk), knees forward...there's no way to drop into an overhead squat position like that, so you can't pull yourself down.

Does that make sense?

[damufunman]

So those don't look too shabby for your first attempt, to be honest. There's a lot to like. Rep one is better than rep two.

One of the problems that's keeping you from being able to make receiving the bar and sitting into an overhead squat is that you catch with your knees forward and hips underneath you. Your hips, in addition to not overextending during a proper pull, will "retreat" as soon as extension is completed.

A great drill to do to understand and feel this can be found in this video:



After watching that video, take a look at the movement you do as you pull under the bar...



Rather than your hips retreating and entering an overhead squat position, you keep the knees forward and and slide the hips forward. When you catch the bar your torso is upright, hips underneath you (like a jerk), knees forward...there's no way to drop into an overhead squat position like that, so you can't pull yourself down.

Does that make sense?

Er, not quite sure I understand your last bit about not dropping into an overhead squat, specifically the bolded part, unless you mean I'm too high... It seems either my timing for transitioning to the third pull, or simply not going far enough down is the issue.

[Testiclaw]

Typing is hard to convey what I mean, so I'll have one of my lifters demonstrate what I mean tonight and film it for you and it'll make way more sense!

[Testiclaw]

I'll grab a video Friday, Thursday everyone has off and I forgot to take one today.

[damufunman]

Dude not a problem at all. Thanks for putting so much time into this, I really appreciate it. You've gone above and beyond what I'd expect from a free online forum. This is why this community is amazing.

[Testiclaw]

No worries man, it's my pleasure.

I absolutely love this kind of stuff, and getting to shoot the shit about weightlifting is always a fun way to waste time.

[damufunman]

Went back and read this and a couple things I noticed:

No-contact means you don't get the additional speed from the hips, which makes the contribution from the leg drive more important in the third pull.

Third pull is pulling under right? No leg drive here, but legs pull up to allow body to move down fast right?

In addition to a vertical, close bar path, your mechanics in the third pull are amplified and the upper body is recruited much more "harshly" to aid in getting under the bar, keeping it close, and exaggerating the speed of the turnover and lockout.

I noticed my arms were sore after doing the no feet no contact snatches. Is thisfrom the more harsh use of upper body while pulling under?

[OCG]

I think what Tesiclaw is saying is, in the bottom of a snatch and an overhead squat you want to be somewhat bent over right? Just like a LBBS, which is why it has the greatest transfer to oly lifting.

So, when you're coming from very upright extension down to the bottom, you're not bending over, which will require your hips to come back. You're coming down into this weird too upright position.

[damufunman]

I think what Tesiclaw is saying is, in the bottom of a snatch and an overhead squat you want to be somewhat bent over right? Just like a LBBS, which is why it has the greatest transfer to oly lifting.

So, when you're coming from very upright extension down to the bottom, you're not bending over, which will require your hips to come back. You're coming down into this weird too upright position.

HB Squat is recommended for Olympic lifting. Generally want to be more upright in the bottom of snatch and clean.

[OCG]

...That, that's a joke Dan.

[damufunman]

...That, that's a joke Dan.

I suspected it might be, but thought I'd error this way than the other...

damn you.

[damufunman]

@Testiclaw
No feet, no contact snatches from last night. Still not pulling under that much, weight still too light for that? Also, have some significant arm pull beginning of second pull, no bueno right?



And power position snatches from the weekend

[mbasic]

IF I were you, and I'm not,
I would do those power position snatches with no dip down into the hang, i.e. I would do them from a static position.
Also, I wouldn't bend my legs so much. Would barely unlock my knees.

#1- by dipping down into the hang, you are getting a bounce or SRF there, helping you lift the weight (higher)
#2- by really bending your legs, you are lifting the bar with your lower body.

If the object of this (how I would use it anyway) to get the feel of using your arms to pull yourself under, and lift your legs/feet, and move into the squat pos. quickly . . . . .with a lighti-sh weight and to be crisp about it.

You don't want to excessively lift the bar too high with your legs. Then your arms are just going thru the motions, and you wind up catching in a power-snatch catch position.

If you get to a point where you are doing this exercise with some real heavy singles (90% of max snatch); then yeah, go ahead and do #1 and #2.

Just my 0.02

[damufunman]

IF I were you, and I'm not,
I would do those power position snatches with no dip down into the hang, i.e. I would do them from a static position.
Also, I wouldn't bend my legs so much. Would barely unlock my knees.

#1- by dipping down into the hang, you are getting a bounce or SRF there, helping you lift the weight (higher)
#2- by really bending your legs, you are lifting the bar with your lower body.

If the object of this (how I would use it anyway) to get the feel of using your arms to pull yourself under, and lift your legs/feet, and move into the squat pos. quickly . . . . .with a lighti-sh weight and to be crisp about it.

You don't want to excessively lift the bar too high with your legs. Then your arms are just going thru the motions, and you wind up catching in a power-snatch catch position.

If you get to a point where you are doing this exercise with some real heavy singles (90% of max snatch); then yeah, go ahead and do #1 and #2.

Just my 0.02

OOh, good points Mike.
You aren't talking about doing a tall snatch right? Keep the knee bend, just not so much and with a pause?

[mbasic]

OOh, good points Mike.
You aren't talking about doing a tall snatch right?

No, but whatever ...
semantics, personal preferences, and tweaks depending what you are trying to train.
Tall snatch, hip snatch, Barski snatch, JFC

I think Greg has approximately 234,124 different demo-videos in his exercise library now.

Keep the knee bend, just not so much and with a pause?

Yeah, I just think you are throwing it too high with your legs,
and therefore you are not training the pull under, foot work, and squatting down parts.

You could maybe start with a pure tall snatch with the bar or 95# ....
and then eventually progress with a slight knee bend as you get to 135-155#.

I like the idea of keeping the slight unlocking of the knees and hips even with a "tall snatch".
My thinking is the body/legs should be accustomed to violently extending, and immediately whipping back into a squat.
So yeah, just barely, and I mean barely, unlock the knees and maybe hips...

I think tall snatches are best used to show the lifter that they CAN move under the under the bar
without getting very high. More used to break a mental block.

To really emphasize the pull under and the pop down into the OHS pos.,
you are going to need more weight on the bar than a pure tall snatch.

Say in a vaccuum in space an/or zero gravity:
A 185 man pulling up on a 95 bar; the bar is going to move twice as fast as the mans body. (CoG to CoG)
185 bw / 185 bar ... they both would move the same distance.
185 bw / 370 bar ... the lifter is now moving twice as fast as the barbell.

Then factor in the lifter is "changing" his shape from going "tall" to "squat".

This is just another reason why elite athletes look so fast in the snatch.
If you really focus on just the barbell, the barbell doesn't move fast at all, the lifter does.
The really strong fuckers get the benefit of pulling against a heavy mass in that 0.2 sec moment of "weightlessness" (third pull).

Use your bar speed tracker, see what bar speeds you have in 1RM snatch.
I bet you peak bar speed is super high compared to an elite lifters....seems backwards I know.
IIRC, in some of the old soviet literature, it was around 1.8 m/s for the peak in the second "phase" (pull) of the snatch; clean was 1.4 m/s.
I think I was routinely around 2.4-2.8 in the snatch depending on the % of max.

[damufunman]

OOh, good points Mike.
You aren't talking about doing a tall snatch right?

No, but whatever ...
semantics, personal preferences, and tweaks depending what you are trying to train.
Tall snatch, hip snatch, Barski snatch, JFC

I think Greg has approximately 234,124 different demo-videos in his exercise library now.

Keep the knee bend, just not so much and with a pause?

Yeah, I just think you are throwing it too high with your legs,
and therefore you are not training the pull under, foot work, and squatting down parts.

You could maybe start with a pure tall snatch with the bar or 95# ....
and then eventually progress with a slight knee bend as you get to 135-155#.

I like the idea of keeping the slight unlocking of the knees and hips even with a "tall snatch".
My thinking is the body/legs should be accustomed to violently extending, and immediately whipping back into a squat.
So yeah, just barely, and I mean barely, unlock the knees and maybe hips...

I think tall snatches are best used to show the lifter that they CAN move under the under the bar
without getting very high. More used to break a mental block.

To really emphasize the pull under and the pop down into the OHS pos.,
you are going to need more weight on the bar than a pure tall snatch.

Say in a vaccuum in space an/or zero gravity:
A 185 man pulling up on a 95 bar; the bar is going to move twice as fast as the mans body. (CoG to CoG)
185 bw / 185 bar ... they both would move the same distance.
185 bw / 370 bar ... the lifter is now moving twice as fast as the barbell.

Then factor in the lifter is "changing" his shape from going "tall" to "squat".

This is just another reason why elite athletes look so fast in the snatch.
If you really focus on just the barbell, the barbell doesn't move fast at all, the lifter does.
The really strong fuckers get the benefit of pulling against a heavy mass in that 0.2 sec moment of "weightlessness" (third pull).

Use your bar speed tracker, see what bar speeds you have in 1RM snatch.
I bet you peak bar speed is super high compared to an elite lifters....seems backwards I know.
IIRC, in some of the old soviet literature, it was around 1.8 m/s for the peak in the second "phase" (pull) of the snatch; clean was 1.4 m/s.
I think I was routinely around 2.4-2.8 in the snatch depending on the % of max.

Everett talks about heavier (still light) tall snatches having some cheating out of necessity. But yeah, definitely getting the bar too high still. Pausing did help last workout, still need to get a good pull under, probably going to do fewer reps so I can get the weight up.

Yeah, I thought about getting my barspeed thingy out, but it's not getting peak speeds, so I gotta dig into the firmware again. :/ Not sure if it's an algorithm issue, a noise issue, or a filtering issue so not sure if that's gonna happen any time soon. But it's a good idea, thanks!

[Testiclaw]

Yeah, the snatches from the power position should be done without an elastic dip. We want you to really feel the position, and feel the entire foot on the floor during the explosion. "Whole foot, whole time".

I've actually wanted to drop a line to Everett and ask for a clarification about his power position description. He prefers that position to be a vertical torso, slight knee-bend, shoulders behind the bar. I've always understood it to be slight knee-bend and slight hip-bend, shoulders still covering the bar, but just. So it's where the bar makes contact but before the final extension of both the hip and the knee.

And that's a good segway into what I see;



Too much knee bend, too vertical of torso, for my taste. I want a slight bend in the knees and hips, shoulders covering the bar. The tricky part of the snatch is to go from being over the bar to a more vertical position via violent hip extension without it throwing the bar forward so we can utilize the legs to propel the bar vertically. If we start in a position where the torso is already vertical we don't train this. It's easy to create purely vertical bar trajectory if we don't have to worry about the hips and shoulders moving the way they will move in the full lift.

I'd like to see these again, but with the changes mentioned.

As for this;



You've already pulled with your arms before the legs have reached full extension, and your shoulders are already behind the bar so the musculature can't be utilized to pull you under after the explosion.

For the no-touch snatching you need long arms all the way until the legs have done their job, and as the bar is driven upwards the upper back can pull you under. If the arms are bent and the shoulders are behind the bar it means two things: the power from the leg explosion doesn't get to the bar, and, you can't pull yourself straight down during the third pull.

Watch this video to see what I mean:



Does that make sense?

[damufunman]

I was thinking about the arm pull this weekend after watching some of my videos. It's pretty bad, and I realized I need to use that motion to pull under, so that could be a big part of my issue. Not sure how to clean up that timing other than to drill something like the "long arms" and deliberate pull in the video you posted.
The hip bend with the power position makes sense. I think just using leg drive has been helpful for me, as I was really focusing on hip extension and not using my legs as much before, so these have got me feeling the leg drive. I'll add in some hips this week and work on not throwing the bar out front. And yeah, I have a problem with dipping too low. Happens in my jerk and push press too, work in progress:

[Testiclaw]

You can try some snatches with a false grip, thumb on the same side as your fingers, in your warmup.

It can help reinforce long, loose arms because you don't have a secure enough grip to yank or pull.

[damufunman]

How these hang snatches look? Felt pretty good, though frame by frame I can see my hips shift forward right before I start extension.