Rules of thumb for cutting

[quark]

Greg Nukols: divide your current bodyfat percentage by 20. Aim to lose this percentage of your weight per week. For example, if you're 200 pounds and 30% bodyfat, 30% / 20 = 1.5% and 1.5% of 200 is 3 pounds. 3,500 calories represents about one pound, so to lose one pound you'd need to eat 500 fewer calories per day or burn 500 more or some combination.

Whelp. According to this, I should be eating 665 calories per day. I know I need to lose a lot of weight, but...

See the clarification at viewtopic.php?p=84363#p84363

[Mugaaz]

But about 8 weeks in I just hit a wall, every time.

I've experienced that as well.

Me too. I've been thinking a lot about this, and it's too bad I don't know more about it. The body just does not like losing weight, especially the last ten pounds. I feel really lethargic. To conserve energy my body just wants to do nothing. So it's this vicious cycle where I have to reduce calories further, the body slows down more, I reduce calories more; I up the coffee intake to even get to the workout, and since that's in the evening I now can't fall asleep because I had coffee late in the day, so I'm even more tired the next day so have more coffee.

I don't know. I have to get this done now, though, because the older I get the more difficult it's going to get. That's pretty much all I know.

ETA: I wonder if at the end you can't lose more fat by just cutting calories, lifting a little bit, and sitting on your ass the rest of the day. I mean, you can, but you can't while holding on to most of the muscle. (???) Recently (maybe five years ago) I worked construction (doing some demolition and framing) for a while (to renovate some space off campus for a small company), and I ate as much as I wanted and dropped 20 lb down to a bodyweight of 175 lb (I'm averaging 199 lb right now at 5'8").

I did the thing where you are following a working diet and it has been working consistently, then after a period of time it stops working completely, so you cut even further. It will start working again....for a short while, then you are ABSOLUTELY stuck. It is the worst possible option. You've basically worked yourself into a corner with no chance of escape. Even worse, when you do come off the diet, your weight will shoot up immediately. It is a completely pointless endeavor imo. I doubled down on the diet, basically completely starved, but lost an additional 20 lbs. However, even that stopped working and I was completely incapable of losing anymore. Realized there was nowhere left to go diet wise, so I stopped that diet and increased calories gradually to what a TDEE calculator said a guy my size should be eating. Still resulted in me going from 220 to 250 in under 3 months. It sucks when stuff stops working, but eventually there needs to be some strategy beyond "restrict further and up cardio even more".

[Savs]

I did the thing where you are following a working diet and it has been working consistently, then after a period of time it stops working completely, so you cut even further. It will start working again....for a short while, then you are ABSOLUTELY stuck. It is the worst possible option. You've basically worked yourself into a corner with no chance of escape. Even worse, when you do come off the diet, your weight will shoot up immediately. It is a completely pointless endeavor imo. I doubled down on the diet, basically completely starved, but lost an additional 20 lbs. However, even that stopped working and I was completely incapable of losing anymore. Realized there was nowhere left to go diet wise, so I stopped that diet and increased calories gradually to what a TDEE calculator said a guy my size should be eating. Still resulted in me going from 220 to 250 in under 3 months. It sucks when stuff stops working, but eventually there needs to be some strategy beyond "restrict further and up cardio even more".

I'm going to follow your earlier advice and take a break maybe for a week. Maybe increase the calories by 300 or 400 /day, and then try again at the level I am now (2300 kcal/day). Please let me know if you disagree with the plan. Thanks!

[Mugaaz]

I did the thing where you are following a working diet and it has been working consistently, then after a period of time it stops working completely, so you cut even further. It will start working again....for a short while, then you are ABSOLUTELY stuck. It is the worst possible option. You've basically worked yourself into a corner with no chance of escape. Even worse, when you do come off the diet, your weight will shoot up immediately. It is a completely pointless endeavor imo. I doubled down on the diet, basically completely starved, but lost an additional 20 lbs. However, even that stopped working and I was completely incapable of losing anymore. Realized there was nowhere left to go diet wise, so I stopped that diet and increased calories gradually to what a TDEE calculator said a guy my size should be eating. Still resulted in me going from 220 to 250 in under 3 months. It sucks when stuff stops working, but eventually there needs to be some strategy beyond "restrict further and up cardio even more".

I'm going to follow your earlier advice and take a break maybe for a week. Maybe increase the calories by 300 or 400 /day, and then try again at the level I am now (2300 kcal/day). Please let me know if you disagree with the plan. Thanks!

Full disclaimer, I have no expertise on this diet break stuff, but I'd bump it up higher, like 3000. It needs to be a real change. Track the 3000 though, eat what you want, but within P/C/F #s you've setup. Don't go over or under on them. If you've been real light on carbs, ensure put those back in. Also, I'd break for 2 weeks, not just one. Like I said, it needs to be a real change and that just takes longer than 1 week. Also, IMO, the key is tracking stuff accurately during the break. The tracking aspect is necessary to ensure you don't start smashing buffets and that there is no "fuck this" response when you go back to where you left off on the diet.

[Savs]

Thanks, Mugaaz. The smashing of the buffets will stay in my dreams. Also, thanks to all those contributing in the programming-tweaks-while-cutting thread upstairs.

[DCM]

But about 8 weeks in I just hit a wall, every time.

I've experienced that as well.

Me too. I've been thinking a lot about this, and it's too bad I don't know more about it. The body just does not like losing weight, especially the last ten pounds. I feel really lethargic. To conserve energy my body just wants to do nothing. So it's this vicious cycle where I have to reduce calories further, the body slows down more, I reduce calories more; I up the coffee intake to even get to the workout, and since that's in the evening I now can't fall asleep because I had coffee late in the day, so I'm even more tired the next day so have more coffee.

I don't know. I have to get this done now, though, because the older I get the more difficult it's going to get. That's pretty much all I know.

ETA: I wonder if at the end you can't lose more fat by just cutting calories, lifting a little bit, and sitting on your ass the rest of the day. I mean, you can, but you can't while holding on to most of the muscle. (???) Recently (maybe five years ago) I worked construction (doing some demolition and framing) for a while (to renovate some space off campus for a small company), and I ate as much as I wanted and dropped 20 lb down to a bodyweight of 175 lb (I'm averaging 199 lb right now at 5'8").

It definitely sounds to me like you're in desperate need of a diet break, as Mugaaz has already suggested. I would suggest upping the calories slowly, like by 100-150 cals extra week by week, while monitoring bodyweight and not allowing it to go up by more than 2-3 pounds (to allow for glycogen replenishment but avoid excess fat gain). Then perhaps maintain your bodyweight for a few months while working on getting stronger and perhaps even a bit bigger - lots of assistance lifts with high reps etc. This will help to ramp your metabolism back up and (hopefully) allow you to resume cutting at a way higher calorie intake than you are at currently. I realise this all sounds a bit bro-sciency, but in the bodybuilding world this seems to be accepted standard practice these days. Layne Norton has some good vids on metabolic damage / reverse dieting, well worth a watch imo. This is also the approach I've taken over the last 18 months and it's worked well for me, though ymmv.

[Savs]

It definitely sounds to me like you're in desperate need of a diet break, as Mugaaz has already suggested. I would suggest upping the calories slowly, like by 100-150 cals extra week by week, while monitoring bodyweight and not allowing it to go up by more than 2-3 pounds (to allow for glycogen replenishment but avoid excess fat gain). Then perhaps maintain your bodyweight for a few months while working on getting stronger and perhaps even a bit bigger - lots of assistance lifts with high reps etc. This will help to ramp your metabolism back up and (hopefully) allow you to resume cutting at a way higher calorie intake than you are at currently. I realise this all sounds a bit bro-sciency, but in the bodybuilding world this seems to be accepted standard practice these days. Layne Norton has some good vids on metabolic damage / reverse dieting, well worth a watch imo. This is also the approach I've taken over the last 18 months and it's worked well for me, though ymmv.

I think you guys have finally gotten through my thick skull. Thanks.

I was hoping to be lean for the short summer season here. Oh well, I guess all we need is just a little patience, to quote the famous bards, GnR.

Also, Wilhelm and others, thanks for your contributions in the "keto" thread. We have quite a few dieting experts here, and I can't even imagine having quality discussions like these on this topic at the old place. The freedom here is exhilarating. The mind soars! (I don't care how corny that sounds.)

[DCM]

It definitely sounds to me like you're in desperate need of a diet break, as Mugaaz has already suggested. I would suggest upping the calories slowly, like by 100-150 cals extra week by week, while monitoring bodyweight and not allowing it to go up by more than 2-3 pounds (to allow for glycogen replenishment but avoid excess fat gain). Then perhaps maintain your bodyweight for a few months while working on getting stronger and perhaps even a bit bigger - lots of assistance lifts with high reps etc. This will help to ramp your metabolism back up and (hopefully) allow you to resume cutting at a way higher calorie intake than you are at currently. I realise this all sounds a bit bro-sciency, but in the bodybuilding world this seems to be accepted standard practice these days. Layne Norton has some good vids on metabolic damage / reverse dieting, well worth a watch imo. This is also the approach I've taken over the last 18 months and it's worked well for me, though ymmv.

I think you guys have finally gotten through my thick skull. Thanks.

I was hoping to be lean for the short summer season here. Oh well, I guess all we need is just a little patience, to quote the famous bards, GnR.

Also, Wilhelm and others, thanks for your contributions in the "keto" thread. We have quite a few dieting experts here, and I can't even imagine having quality discussions like these on this topic at the old place. The freedom here is exhilarating. The mind soars! (I don't care how corny that sounds.)

I can very well relate to that feeling of frustration - I'm still way off from where I want to be bodycomp-wise, and have to keep preaching patience to myself. But then I'm still making good progress and not exhibiting any of the clear symptoms of burnout that you have. Try to see the maintenance phase as another kind of challenge - can you make yourself look and feel better during this time while keeping bodyweight the same? I.e. achieve the holy grail of body recomp? In my experience it takes the mind a little while to switch tack like this after focusing so exclusively on one goal (i.e. dieting) - but once that switch happens, training and life become fun once more. It's all stepping stones towards the right destination, and Rome wasn't built in a day / add your platitude of choice

[Wilhelm]

I'm getting ready for my first real cut after my major weight loss late 2016/early 2017.
After the Exodus meet, i have two weeks before the next deadlift cycle starts, and bench and squat will start out easier than before with just a single and one set of drop sets. (3 day split, basic dup scheme)

lol @Savs I'm so far from an expert on actually losing weight, and lost my 50lbs just by brute force of heavy deficit.
I was also very young in training age then, so had no measure of strength gain , loss, or maintenance to judge.
I also was not maximizing my protein during the first half that 6 months.

I'm still in the <93kg class, but i can get quite a bit slimmer losing body fat.

I'm going to go fast and dirty with a 1,000 calorie daily deficit for those two weeks, then 500 for a while and see how the new cycles feel.
My little tricks to get full protein and stay in ketosis may be my most "expert' skill i've developed.
Ketosis is a protein sparing state in the face of a deficit, so it will be interesting to see how this goes now that i am more in tune with my strength levels.

If i can drop 7 to 10lbs i'll be on easy street to slowly bulk back the rest of the year.

[tdood]

@Savs I used diet breaks successfully and I think you could use one. I think 3-400 cals is fine, you’ll probably actually lose weight.
If you’re really over dieting and want to get into some productive training, but want minimal weight gain, I would reverse diet.
Like @Mugaaz said, you need to track.. increasing calories without fatfucking yourself is harder than dieting imo.

[Savs]

Wilhelm, I don't know, man. Maybe experienced is better than expert as a qualifier. You sure sound like you've done your homework. And you scared the shit out of me. I don't think keto is for me right now.

tdood: Yeah, I'm going to take a diet break, although I won't change the myfitnesspal settings. The large, red negative numbers will freak me out a bit. I'm pretty sure at my current daily activity level my energy expenditure is was somewhere between 2800 and 2900 kcal/day. Shockingly low. I'll do 2900 and see what happens. Maybe the extra energy will get me moving about more and recomp will happen. We'll see! It'll be good not to dread pressing anymore. That's the lift that dies first for me. I've moved beyond that now to dreading deads, and those were flying up (I was doing a slow LP -- earning my reps, as Chebass suggested in passing a while ago in some other thread).

[quark]

Here's a Mike T post from his Q&A:

During my development cycles, I'm "bulking" or maintaining. During maintenance, I expect to gain .15% to .25% of my bodyweight each week (7 day average). Bulking is .3% to .4% per week.
During my pivots, I'm cutting. I expect to drop .5% to 1% of my bodyweight each week.

Calories are adjusted in 5% increments depending on if I'm above the range or below the range.

If I need to drop weight, I'll go MX in the development cycles and cut during the pivots. Assuming a 3:1 ratio (which is normal), that will lead to a slow drop in weight while being in a very slight surplus during the development cycles. If I need to gain weight, I'm bulking during the dev cycles and cutting during the pivots.

viewtopic.php?p=85123#p85123

[Stenson]

increasing calories without fatfucking yourself is harder than dieting imo.

I agree completely. "Slow bulking" has always been really difficult for me. It's like I'm either in diet mode or eat everything in sight mode, there's no in between.

My next bulking cycle I'm gonna refrain from junk food as much as possible. I'm a glutton and have no self control lol

[Mugaaz]

increasing calories without fatfucking yourself is harder than dieting imo.

I agree completely. "Slow bulking" has always been really difficult for me. It's like I'm either in diet mode or eat everything in sight mode, there's no in between.

My next bulking cycle I'm gonna refrain from junk food as much as possible. I'm a glutton and have no self control lol

Meh, you can eat occasional junk when bulking. You just need to track it, especially if you have a history of always getting fat. As long as you are holding yourself accountable and not letting stuff go into the ether and say stuff like "that didn't matter"/"that didn't count", then you'll be fine. Except buffets, fuck buffets. Those will destroy anybody. Except Fogo De Chao, they're doing the lords work. Some things are worth being fat for.

[Stenson]

increasing calories without fatfucking yourself is harder than dieting imo.

I agree completely. "Slow bulking" has always been really difficult for me. It's like I'm either in diet mode or eat everything in sight mode, there's no in between.

My next bulking cycle I'm gonna refrain from junk food as much as possible. I'm a glutton and have no self control lol

Meh, you can eat occasional junk when bulking. You just need to track it, especially if you have a history of always getting fat. As long as you are holding yourself accountable and not letting stuff go into the ether and say stuff like "that didn't matter"/"that didn't count", then you'll be fine. Except buffets, fuck buffets. Those will destroy anybody. Except Fogo De Chao, they're doing the lords work. Some things are worth being fat for.

Keyword...occasional. And in moderation. Baked goods are my kryptonite, and it's damn near impossible for me to eat one cookie

[Cinic]

What's the point of one cookie?

And there's the window into my soul about why I don't drink anymore...hah.

[tdood]

I eat junk regardless of the goal, I just track it. But at least when you’re dieting and you have a little binge, you jump right back on the diet and undo the damage in a few days. When you’re bulking it takes a level of discipline, that I don’t have, to cut calories for a few days after a binge. And those binges add up quickly, at least for me.

[simonrest]

Greg Nukols: divide your current bodyfat percentage by 20. Aim to lose this percentage of your weight per week. For example, if you're 200 pounds and 30% bodyfat, 30% / 20 = 1.5% and 1.5% of 200 is 3 pounds. 3,500 calories represents about one pound, so to lose one pound you'd need to eat 500 fewer calories per day or burn 500 more or some combination.

bf% = 35%. Divide by 20 = 1.75
1.75% of 275 = 4.8 pounds per week (hmmm)
4.8 pounds = 16,800 calories
divide by 7 = 2400cal per day

easy

[Mugaaz]

Greg Nukols: divide your current bodyfat percentage by 20. Aim to lose this percentage of your weight per week. For example, if you're 200 pounds and 30% bodyfat, 30% / 20 = 1.5% and 1.5% of 200 is 3 pounds. 3,500 calories represents about one pound, so to lose one pound you'd need to eat 500 fewer calories per day or burn 500 more or some combination.

bf% = 35%. Divide by 20 = 1.75
1.75% of 275 = 4.8 pounds per week (hmmm)
4.8 pounds = 16,800 calories
divide by 7 = 2400cal per day

easy

Here is your meal plan:

Breakfast: skip
Lunch: Glass of water
Snack: Watch a cooking show
Dinner: 2 celery sticks

You can have one cheat meal per week where you are allowed to smell a cookie.

Follow until you die or make weight.

[cwd]

What's the point of one cookie?

And there's the window into my soul about why I don't drink anymore...hah.

Having a drink in the evening often causes me to snack continuously until bedtime. One whiskey ends up being 1000 empty calories.

Partly this is why I don't drink except on special occasions these days.