BBM The Nuances of Obesity with Dr. Spencer Nadolsky (Part 1)

[JohnHelton]

@Wilhelm I share a bit of your irritation here too. I have been in and out of ketosis numerous times in the past couple of years. I've lost weight using it as an aid to calorie restriction, and I've also lost weight restricting calories while eating higher carbs. I've found it easier for compliance when I have avoided the carbs, as they tend to trigger my hunger. All that being said, I don't really struggle with my weight. I usually have about a 35 inch waist while maintaining a 200-208 pound body weight over the last 2.5 years. However, my family does suffer from chronic auto-immune diseases as well as cardio-vascular disease. 2.5 years ago, my lipid panel looked pretty bad. I subsequently ran less, ate fewer carbs, and more fat. Today, my panel isn't perfect, but I've substantially lowered my total cholesterol, ldl-c, and triglycerides, while massively improving my hdl-c. These results put my triglycerides/hdl-c ratio in the extremely good range. All of this while maintaining about a 15% body fat. A low carb diet isn't just about losing weight, there is real evidence that it improves many other aspects of health. I mention auto-immune function, since many, many people with auto-immune diseases have experienced drastic improvement after a LCHF diet. So yes, I don't think anyone should be dismissive of a LCHF (and even as extreme as keto) diet. There is certainly a mountain of research being done in this area, and the results certainly aren't showing that it should be dismissed as a fad. I also don't believe that the rise in obesity (and heart disease) and introduction of the food pyramid is a coincidence. Large quantities of simple carbs as a dietary staple is just bad for people. And of course that is what happened when people tried to cut the fat from their diet. They weren't going to get all their energy from vegetables.

[SJB]

PMd you some info. A few talks and a link to a book.
Kind of where i started when researching this.

Really don't want to carry on derailing things here.
It's another way to do things, has some unique benefits not related to weight loss, has some pitfalls and probably can't be well implemented if reddit is your source for research, and it's not a joke diet when implemented in a well formulated manner.
/endrant

@Willhelm I want a PM also bish. @ you fucker@@@@@

[slowmotion]

Feel free to send me a PM too, @Wilhelm .

[augeleven]

@Wilhelm was keto mentioned in the podcast as a joke?

You're n=1 input is always appreciated here, especially considering the successes that you have had. I don't know, maybe you're just a #geneticfreak
I'd ask for that pm too, or maybe just copy/paste it into a separate thread, whatever is easier for you.

[Wilhelm]

I didn't expect people to be interested.
I really do try to keep this largely to myself. I will mention it for sure, but i'm not going to be starting threads about it, or trying to get people to try it.
But yeah, i mentioned it here because of how it was treated as a joke yet again by Jordan. I get it. He doesn't like the diet.
But to repeatedly, every single time it comes up, imply it's purely a fad and laughable (yes, people have become fadish with it), made me venture to comment on that here.
I'm not a fan of what i call "Reddit Keto"
There are pitfalls, and if you just eat basically bacon and butter, you are absolutely going to have deficiences.

If a person can comply, Keto is an excellent way to maintain a calorie deficit.
The brain shifts to using ketones for most of it's energy, so does not demand to be fed since it is being fed.
In addition, the "hunger Hormone" ghrelin is suppressed. Then simply the satiety factor of the food has people comsuming fewer calories most often, even if they aren't counting calories.
But i am a fan of charting, and have charted every single day since October 2016 except for two days when i was out of town for my meet.
If you can't comply, then of course you won't lose weight. Find another way to maintain a deficit.
Many people don't stick with it long enough to adapt and realise the things i just mentioned happening.
I lost 50 lbs in 6 months and was not hungry once. I'll take that.

I guess PMs to try to keep it from taking over the thread are not as neat and easy a solution as i thought they would be.
It's refreshing to read @JohnHelton's experience and results RE: his lipid numbers.

Ok, i will list what i think are good starting points for anyone curious about keto.
After this, you are all on your own to read and research if interested.
If you plan on being a world class powerlifter, maybe don't eat this way.
But a person can still get strong and add muscle if, for any number of reasons, that person should decide this is a path they want to explore.
I have never not lifted on keto, as i started eating this way October 2016, and started lifting a few months later.

First, read this. Read this book - Read this book.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/114 ... ate-living


Dominic is one of the leading researchers in the field of ketosis as applied to disease and disease prevention.
His lab is now working together with Moffitt Cancer Center to get large scale human trials going looking at "Press Pulse" therapies for cancer treatment.
He also pulled 500 for 10 reps, and then 575 for one after having fasted for 7 days. He doesn't recommend that kind of thing, but was experimenting on himself.
I think it's awesome he has been a lifter. Very serious scientist though.


At 1:27:27 there is discussion of igf1 circulating vs local, resistance training, hypertrophy and igf1 receptor density and sensitivity. Just adding this here as i am relistening to this talk. There i much more to take away here, but i thought this point could be interesting for people here.


Mark P. Mattson is Chief of the Laboratory of Neurosciences at the National Institute on Aging Intramural Research Program National Institute on Aging. He is also Professor of Neuroscience at Johns Hopkins University.
This is a fascinating talk. Great tangents. Brain derived neurotropic factor released/stimulated by trail running... wut lol. well worth the listen.
This is not really a keto centric talk, although it does come up.


tagging @augeleven

[GrizzlyAdam]

Finally listened to this, and was reminded of Rip's stance on obesity.

https://startingstrength.com/resources/ ... obese.html

Chances are very high that I have just wasted 3 minutes typing this, because if he had enough self discipline to train and do a ketogenic diet (actually the easiest way to eat to lose weight), he wouldn't be morbidly obese.

Irreconcilable differences, as it were.

[augeleven]

thanks, @Wilhelm.

[BenM]

I just finished listening to this.

I didn’t think they were dismissive of keto. Just said that it’s not a magic bullet and the studies showed it’s no better than any other weight loss method when calories and protein are controlled. Which is true.

I think people (not you @Wilhelm) get very evangelistic about their diets because when they find the solution that works and is sustainable for them they assume it’ll work for others (and sometimes they genuinely want to see other people succeed) but also people like to belong to a tribe so they have an innate need to want to grow that tribe and make it more successful than it’s competitors.

FTR I haven’t tried keto yet but I’d like to. Nothing against the method itself although doubt I could sustain it over the long term. I do like carbs.

[MattNeilsen]

@Wilhelm @JohnHelton Thanks for sharing your experiences - it's very interesting to me to hear from guys who actually lift. I've done a lot of research into keto/LCHF diets [I've listened to everything by D'Agostino I can find - good recommendation, Wilhelm], and it's something I'm constantly curious about. Do either of you do conditioning and/or aerobic/anaerobic activities outside the gym? In addition to strength training, I train martial arts 3x/wk and have found low-carb can get challenging. I'm not married to the idea that I need to be in ketosis, but I am pretty interested in some of the potential health benefits outside of performance improvement.

I agree 100% with what you said, @BenM - it's so easy to get tribalistic about diets. Lord knows I've been embarrassingly guilty of that in my past [went full vegan for 2 years and ~95% vegan for an additional 4 years, all because I thought it was The One True Way to health...].

[JohnHelton]

Do either of you do conditioning and/or aerobic/anaerobic activities outside the gym?

I have done an enormous amount of aerobic training on a very low carb diet. However, I have to warn you that it can take a substantial amount of time for your body to adapt to using fat as fuel...and you will feel like you have no energy while aerobic training as you adapt. The first 3-4 weeks are the worst. I like the low heart rate approach to training during that time. 180 bpm minus your age. If you try to run, you will practically be crawling. Treadmill or a stationary bike are the best approach, because you can so easily control your exertion level. Over time you will get stronger and stronger at the same heart rate, until you can exercise at your former pace while having a very low heart rate. Also once my body adapted, I never had energy problems, including while running sprint intervals. Thus I never have energy issues while lifting.

[MattNeilsen]

Do either of you do conditioning and/or aerobic/anaerobic activities outside the gym?

I have done an enormous amount of aerobic training on a very low carb diet. However, I have to warn you that it can take a substantial amount of time for your body to adapt to using fat as fuel...and you will feel like you have no energy while aerobic training as you adapt. The first 3-4 weeks are the worst. I like the low heart rate approach to training during that time. 180 bpm minus your age. If you try to run, you will practically be crawling. Treadmill or a stationary bike are the best approach, because you can so easily control your exertion level. Over time you will get stronger and stronger at the same heart rate, until you can exercise at your former pace while having a very low heart rate. Also once my body adapted, I never had energy problems, including while running sprint intervals. Thus I never have energy issues while lifting.

How long would you say it took you to transition in total? You’re peaking my interest again to start experimenting

Also, I noticed in your log you said you’re working with Avatar Nutrition - are you still doing LCHF/keto for macros?

[JohnHelton]

How long would you say it took you to transition in total? You’re peaking my interest again to start experimenting

Also, I noticed in your log you said you’re working with Avatar Nutrition - are you still doing LCHF/keto for macros?

I believe it took 2-3 months to really feel comfortable...probably longer to fully transition. It would have been worse I believe if I had been trying to do more high heart rate stuff during that transition.

I dropped the Avatar Nutrition. I realized it wasn't going to tell me something that I didn't already know. In terms of my macros, I concentrate first on protein. However, per Greg Nuckols, I shoot closer to 1.8g per kg. I then try to keep my carbs low, usually between 40-70g per day. I don't really think about my fats. I've been doing a bulletproof coffee in the morning. That keeps me satisfied until noon. I then eat lunch, have a whey shake at 3pm, and eat dinner about 7pm (usually lifting beforehand). I'm not totally strict in terms of the carbs I eat. In addition to vegetables, I will usually have either a couple 6" tortillas or a scoop of black beans. Living in Texas, this has always been part of my staples. However, that is about it. Dinner is almost always home cooked meat and vegetables. Sometimes low carb chili, etc. I don't eat any sweets.

I have a keto blood test, but I don't monitor myself right now. I know that eating too much protein can kick you out of ketosis. Ketosis, itself, hasn't been a priority for me. I've just been focusing on being LCHF. However, one could spend the time to figure out exactly how much protein they need to fuel muscle protein synthesis, while not having so much that it kicks them out of ketosis. I just haven't spent the time to do that.

[Wilhelm]

**Edit to add - if you are a teen or in your twenties, i wouldn't do keto long term. Cutting or weight loss would be a good use then.
But older trainees are better candidates, imo, as younger people generally have better carb tolerance, and can most effectly utilize them for important development.
*********
I'll post again just to say you can take in a lot more protein in than is popularly believed and still stay strongly in ketosis.
I've tested this with blood readings.
You need to have fat and/or veggies with the protein though.
I just use fat.
It's when you take in a lot of protein and no fat, like a bunch od skinless chicken breast for example, that you can get bumped. Even then, it's not the end of the world unless maybe you are just in the induction phase.
Mct oil, or mct oil powder is great for this, as it goes straight to the liver and boosts blood ketones in short order.
You need water with your fats too, especially with mct oil.
You also need to start slowly with mct oil, to build a tolerance.
If you take too much at once, especially without water, your body will draw the water it needs through your gut wall, and you can get "disaster pants".
While the name is somewhat amusing, it's no joke, and besides piss shitting your brains out, gut toxins get released into your bloodstream.
I usually use a tablespoon at a time of the oil, but i can do that several times a day if i choose.

But just fat will do fine to slow down the protein. I'll mix peanut butter (another thing people think you can't have w/ keto) with my whey, whole milk ricotta, amd/or have a coffee with coconut oil and cream first, etc...

I eat three times a day, in an eight hour window, so my protein dose per meal if pretty high.
i have no problem staying in ketosis. I get i gram per lb bw everyday.
Again, verified with blood readings. i only test blood on a whim anymore though.
And if you don't want to spend the money on the hella expensive test strips, just stick to well less than 50g carbs a day, and you get into ketosis. I'd recommend jumping in the deep end and doing leas than 20 grams to start to get the process going as fast as reasonably possible. These are net carbs, btw. Don't count dietary fiber in your totals. Eat your damn veggies, yo.
Blood readings are nice to know how you respomd to stuff too. Like if you want to figure out the upper limit of carbs you can use. Also, carbs on demand before heavy exercise don't hav ethe same impact on ketosis as when at rest.

Don't get hung up on having high ketone levels either. They will be higher at first, but as you get better at using them (upregulating transport etc...) the levels floating around in your blood will generally be lower.
Those are just what you aren't burning.

I've been skipping mct oil lately, just because my best deal is out of stock right now.
But i have used it twice recently in this peak phase, In my pre workout which is actually my midday "meal"
1/2 hour later, and for at least another hour to hour and a half, blood ketones are well elevated, and that gives me great energy for heavy work.

[BenM]

Part 2 is up - really looking forward to listening to this today sometime -

I'm doing an IF day today so I might even look at the Mattson video above to keep myself motivated through the hungry periods

[tdood]

@Wilhelm I’ve done some relatively serious dieting the past year or so, but on high carb.. higher than my palate prefers (500g carb at some points). I’ve always felt just fine doing keto in the past, once you adjust the energy levels were great, and I love fatty beef. You’re making me curious to try again, this time while actually tracking. Maybe in 2019.

[quark]

Spencer Nadolsky is the doctor SSOC uses for their concierge medicine after they stopped using Jordan and Austin.