BBM The Nuances of Obesity with Dr. Spencer Nadolsky (Part 1)

[bobmen10000]

What I got from this: being fat is complicated (and not all my fault) and Nadolsky uses nuanced more than Jordan .

[mbasic]

good podcast as per usual, but not a lot of information on stuff we didn't know already:

- weight loss in nauced
- diets basically come down to energy balance

so lets get on with the typical BS.
some curious stuff here.



...and what is functional medicine?

[ChrisMcCarthy1979]

More to the point - I'd like Dr DonDiego as my GP.

[slowmotion]

That was almost interesting, but there wasn't really anything there I could use for loosing weight.
Or maybe I wasn't listening closely enough. Maybe part 2 will be more useful.

[SJB]

More to the point - I'd like Dr DonDiego as my GP.

You probably need your prostate checked.

[quark]

That was almost interesting, but there wasn't really anything there I could use for loosing weight.
Or maybe I wasn't listening closely enough. Maybe part 2 will be more useful.

My summary of how to lose weight: The idea is to lose approximately 1 pound per week, more if you're really obese . Track macros with myfitnesspal. Cut about 500 calories per day from your current diet (track for a few days if you don't know how much you're eating). Don't cut protein, don't cut fat too low and make sure you keep a reasonable amount of fiber. Do some conditioning. Keep training, to maintain or perhaps add strength, but make sure your programming doesn't drive you into the ground.

If you're not losing your target amount, adjust as appropriate.

All else is marketing.

Anyone have a better idea?

[Mugaaz]

That was almost interesting, but there wasn't really anything there I could use for loosing weight.
Or maybe I wasn't listening closely enough. Maybe part 2 will be more useful.

My summary of how to lose weight: The idea is to lose approximately 1 pound per week, more if you're really obese . Track macros with myfitnesspal. Cut about 500 calories per day from your current diet (track for a few days if you don't know how much you're eating). Don't cut protein, don't cut fat too low and make sure you keep a reasonable amount of fiber. Do some conditioning. Keep training, to maintain or perhaps add strength, but make sure your programming doesn't drive you into the ground.

If you're not losing your target amount, adjust as appropriate.

All else is marketing.

Anyone have a better idea?

Agree with everything you said. Stuff I'd add:
Weigh yourself every morning after bathroom. Only use your weekly weight averages to track progress.
Not meeting your target for 1 weeks means absolutely nothing. Not meeting it for 2 weeks in a row may mean something. Not meeting it for 3 weeks in a row means you need to make an adjustment.
Track body part measurements and photos, at least monthly.
Just because a calculator says you can lose weight at 3,500 calories a day doesn't mean you actually will.
Your results are more important than what the calculators say.
If you have a long period of weight loss ahead of you, set some noticeable markers of progress in advance. Stuff like going down a loop on your belt, old pants fitting. Stuff that can reinforce your motivation and belief that it is working. You're going to need stuff like this to stay the course if losing 10lbs takes you from very fat to still very fat.

[Wilhelm]

I can't disagree that lots of people doing keto don't understand energy balance, and think it's magic.

But shitting on it using that as the reason, bugs me. It bugs me a lot.
Nadolsky mentioned trying to get patients to maintain a deficit and not feel miserable, or hungry.

Well, some people would be miserable cutting out carbs. Maybe even a huge majority of people.
But, when your brain is running (mostly) on ketones, you can easily maintain a deficit without feeling hungry.
Especially with the added factor of ghrelin being suppressed when you are in nutritional ketosis.

Dismissing keto out of hand as an effective way to lose weight seems... pretty unscientific.

I admit, i am in a minority in that i have never minded being on keto these last 18 months. Not a single cheat day.
I'm a freak in that way.
I knew while i was losing 50lbs in those first 6 months, it was because i was maintaing a pretty severe deficit every day.
But i was also NEVER ONCE HUNGRY in that time.
Losing that weight was fucking easy.

btw, i have recorded everything i have eaten for these past 18 months, with the exception of the two days around my meet.

Anyway, that's my rant. I chose keto after becoming very well informed. Some people use it and don't think it's "magic"

Contrary to popular belief, you can easily get 1 gram protein per pound BW and remain in ketosis.
Taking fat with protein is key there.
I get 1 gram protein per pound BW minimun every single day.

[KyleSchuant]

Quark are you trying to destroy the weight loss industry? That's billions of dollars, man! Do you want to destroy people's jobs? How is anyone going to make a living off YouTube now?!

[mbasic]

I can't disagree that lots of people doing keto don't understand energy balance, and think it's magic.

But shitting on it using that as the reason, bugs me. It bugs me a lot.
Nadolsky mentioned trying to get patients to maintain a deficit and not feel miserable, or hungry.

Well, some people would be miserable cutting out carbs. Maybe even a huge majority of people.
But, when your brain is running (mostly) on ketones, you can easily maintain a deficit without feeling hungry.
Especially with the added factor of ghrelin being suppressed when you are in nutritional ketosis.

Dismissing keto out of hand as an effective way to lose weight seems... pretty unscientific.

I admit, i am in a minority in that i have never minded being on keto these last 18 months. Not a single cheat day.
I'm a freak in that way.
I knew while i was losing 50lbs in those first 6 months, it was because i was maintaing a pretty severe deficit every day.
But i was also NEVER ONCE HUNGRY in that time.
Losing that weight was fucking easy.

btw, i have recorded everything i have eaten for these past 18 months, with the exception of the two days around my meet.

Anyway, that's my rant. I chose keto after becoming very well informed. Some people use it and don't think it's "magic"

Contrary to popular belief, you can easily get 1 gram protein per pound BW and remain in ketosis.
Taking fat with protein is key there.
I get 1 gram protein per pound BW minimun every single day.

They'll say its "compliance" . . . hard to keep doing it (right/correct) for a sustained period.

How grams are carbs a day do you think you are getting @Wilhelm ?

[SJB]

I can't disagree that lots of people doing keto don't understand energy balance, and think it's magic.

But shitting on it using that as the reason, bugs me. It bugs me a lot.
Nadolsky mentioned trying to get patients to maintain a deficit and not feel miserable, or hungry.

Well, some people would be miserable cutting out carbs. Maybe even a huge majority of people.
But, when your brain is running (mostly) on ketones, you can easily maintain a deficit without feeling hungry.
Especially with the added factor of ghrelin being suppressed when you are in nutritional ketosis.

Dismissing keto out of hand as an effective way to lose weight seems... pretty unscientific.

I admit, i am in a minority in that i have never minded being on keto these last 18 months. Not a single cheat day.
I'm a freak in that way.
I knew while i was losing 50lbs in those first 6 months, it was because i was maintaing a pretty severe deficit every day.
But i was also NEVER ONCE HUNGRY in that time.
Losing that weight was fucking easy.

btw, i have recorded everything i have eaten for these past 18 months, with the exception of the two days around my meet.

Anyway, that's my rant. I chose keto after becoming very well informed. Some people use it and don't think it's "magic"

Contrary to popular belief, you can easily get 1 gram protein per pound BW and remain in ketosis.
Taking fat with protein is key there.
I get 1 gram protein per pound BW minimun every single day.

Wilhelm, I would be interested in seeing say two average weeks of what you were eating during this period.

[Wilhelm]

I can't argue on the compliance part either. I know i'm in a different part of the spectrum than most. But i just shut down those talks when it's shit on keto time.
There are real advantages for some people. Baby with bathwater. what the fuck ever.

i'm not bothered at all with criticizing keto zealots, or people who say it's more effective than any other diet calorie for calorie.
The hunger suppression was a huge advantage for me though.

I get from 15 to 30+ grams per day, @mbasic
30+ days are heavy squat days with 22 grams worth by way of high percentage cacao chocolate taken "on demand" If i need it. I think i hit 40 grams one day last week. I may have done that two or three times in the last year and a half.
These are net carbs.
i do chard and brocolli in my smoothies two or three times a week. I'll munch an ounce of raw brocolli other days (1 gram net carb per ounce) And i'll put a little chia in my protein shakes other times.

Today was 23.5 grams net carbs.

[Wilhelm]

Wilhelm, I would be interested in seeing say two average weeks of what you were eating during this period.

Whey isolate
peanut butter
MCT oil
Free range eggs
Ricotta cheese
Chard
Brocolli
Asparagus
Grass fed beef sausage
Chicken thighs
Coffee with cream and coconut oil. Coconut oil is basically just cheap calories to me. Fuel source, not some magic substance.

raw cacao powder
Kippers
Salmon
pecans
some hard cheese here and there
avocados
Kim chee
Rarely some cottage cheese
Also not often, ground beef with melted cheese.

I take a multi vitamin every day as well as magnesium glycinate and vitamin D3 twice daily
I take a K2 capsule twice a week.
Salt in water daily.
High cacao percentage chocolate for on demand carbs for lifting. Pretty rarely. More as i have been pushing my maxes this phase.
I also have potassium gluconate in the house. Pretty low dose by volume. I'll put a little in a shake once or twice a week.

I am not suggesting this for anyone. I really don't care what anyone else eats.

I was getting close to 3,500 calories for about a month or 6 weeks after my meet. And now getting about 3,000/ 3,200
After the Exodus meet, i have a few weeks before my deadlift cycle starts again, and i'm doing a mini cut.

I lost the 50lbs october 2016 into early 2017.
Down to 179 then. Put on 20lbs since. By design.

So, 20 months now, not 18.

[perman]

That was almost interesting, but there wasn't really anything there I could use for loosing weight.
Or maybe I wasn't listening closely enough. Maybe part 2 will be more useful.

My summary of how to lose weight: The idea is to lose approximately 1 pound per week, more if you're really obese . Track macros with myfitnesspal. Cut about 500 calories per day from your current diet (track for a few days if you don't know how much you're eating). Don't cut protein, don't cut fat too low and make sure you keep a reasonable amount of fiber. Do some conditioning. Keep training, to maintain or perhaps add strength, but make sure your programming doesn't drive you into the ground.

If you're not losing your target amount, adjust as appropriate.

All else is marketing.

Anyone have a better idea?

- Using Izzy's guidelines, he recommends 0,5-1% BW loss per week, which while it works out to a pound per week for a 200 pound man, could be different for other body weights.
- He also recommends titrating by 100 calories if progress is outside the desired range for a week.
- Mike Israetel also recommends diet breaks every 2-3 months for a month, which has been scientifically shown now to increase metabolism again and lead to greater fat loss for the same amount of diet time. While it requires higher total time if you include the breaks, it makes it far more sustainable I believe.

[indigo]

Hey @Wilhelm,

Yeh I can see a keto diet being able to help compliance, and diet adherence is incredibly important as you know.

But are you saying that they are being dismissive of some of the science behind it though ?

Just to be clear I'm an ignoramus when it comes to this stuff, and I'm not trying to "call you out " or start some antagonistic bullshit.

Whenever I want to lose weight, I cut down carbs but keep fats and protein the same, which I think is the same as what you are doing. But then I'm also fairly sure that is what Jordan would recommend too.

Thanks.

[SJB]

Wilhelm, I would be interested in seeing say two average weeks of what you were eating during this period.

Whey isolate
peanut butter
MCT oil
Free range eggs
Ricotta cheese
Chard
Brocolli
Asparagus
Grass fed beef sausage
Chicken thighs
Coffee with cream and coconut oil. Coconut oil is basically just cheap calories to me. Fuel source, not some magic substance.

raw cacao powder
Kippers
Salmon
pecans
some hard cheese here and there
avocados
Kim chee
Rarely some cottage cheese
Also not often, ground beef with melted cheese.

I take a multi vitamin every day as well as magnesium glycinate and vitamin D3 twice daily
I take a K2 capsule twice a week.
Salt in water daily.
High cacao percentage chocolate for on demand carbs for lifting. Pretty rarely. More as i have been pushing my maxes this phase.
I also have potassium gluconate in the house. Pretty low dose by volume. I'll put a little in a shake once or twice a week.

I am not suggesting this for anyone. I really don't care what anyone else eats.

I was getting close to 3,500 calories for about a month or 6 weeks after my meet. And now getting about 3,000/ 3,200
After the Exodus meet, i have a few weeks before my deadlift cycle starts again, and i'm doing a mini cut.

I lost the 50lbs october 2016 into early 2017.
Down to 179 then. Put on 20lbs since. By design.

So, 20 months now, not 18.

Thanks, is this you something you plan to continue long term or are you just using it as weight loss? Your foods sound fine but fuck kippers.

[Wilhelm]

Thanks, is this you something you plan to continue long term or are you just using it as weight loss? Your foods sound fine but fuck kippers.

I used to hate kippers too. My tastes have definitely changed.
This is just how i eat now @SJB. For a variety of non weight loss related reasons.
I haven't held a significant deficit for a long time now. Like over 14 months.
I weighed in at my Feb. 24th meet at 197lbs, and my morning weight is just a sliver under 200 currently.
This is the final week of strength block, then taper and Exodus meet.
I am going to cut a bit after that.
I want to keep adding muscle, but remain in the 93 kilo class as long as i can.

@indigo low carb and actually very low carb that induces nutritional ketosis are different things.
Even though i now have several posts in this thread, i try to only talk about my diet when it's in context.
And i must be an outlier in that i actually like this way of eating.
But yeah, i am in no way disagreeing that you lose when you maintain a deficit. no matter what diet you follow.
And the most effective diet is the one you can follow.
The fact that keto allowed me to maintain a severe deficit and not feel hungry, and shed 50lbs in 6 months, was a very useful thing for me personally. It was a huge advantage for me. Not something i would dismiss as a joke.

it's not a useless approach, or a joke diet when used with a little understanding.
I probably should have just kept quiet.

Maybe the "nuance" in the title of that podcast will make an actual appearance in part two.

[indigo]

@indigo low carb and actually very low carb that induces nutritional ketosis are different things.
Even though i now have several posts in this thread, i try to only talk about my diet when it's in context.
And i must be an outlier in that i actually like this way of eating.
But yeah, i am in no way disagreeing that you lose when you maintain a deficit. no matter what diet you follow.
And the most effective diet is the one you can follow.
The fact that keto allowed me to maintain a severe deficit and not feel hungry, and shed 50lbs in 6 months, was a very useful thing for me personally. It was a huge advantage for me. Not something i would dismiss as a joke.

it's not a useless approach, or a joke diet when used with a little understanding.
I probably should have just kept quiet.

Maybe the "nuance" in the title of that podcast will make an actual appearance in part two.

Yeh I would actually like you to talk about your diet, certainly not here to dismiss anything. So no please don't keep quiet.

Maybe something I will consider after I've finished over-eating at the end of the summer.

Seems like keto would be maintaining fats and protein, but then going ultra low carb from what I'm getting.

How did you find lifting during this period ? Do you think that you lost much muscle ?

Thanks.

[Wilhelm]

PMd you some info. A few talks and a link to a book.
Kind of where i started when researching this.

Really don't want to carry on derailing things here.
It's another way to do things, has some unique benefits not related to weight loss, has some pitfalls and probably can't be well implemented if reddit is your source for research, and it's not a joke diet when implemented in a well formulated manner.
/endrant

[Mugaaz]

Chicken thighs

My man!

Grass fed beef sausage

Whhhhyyyyyyyyyyy ?