Sumo or conventional?

[Toxguy]

Hey guys!

Would like your thoughts on my conventional and sumo pulls. Today was the first day I have done sumo. It was weird but I didn’t notice any rounding, whereas with my conventional my back does. I’m not sure if it’s ‘acceptable’ or not. I figured sumo may be worth a try! So, I’m posting both and looking for guidance! Thanks!

Conventional 405x2@8


Conventional 360x5@8



Sumo 355x1@8


Sumo 295 5x5(5th set shown)

[Murelli]

Your sumo looks better than conventional, but not good yet. You can set your back on both but you are rushing the start of the lift. Think about squeezing the bar out of the floor or pushing the floor with your legs and you probably will end up with a better deadlift, sumo or conventional. You may need to back a little off on the weight until this cue becomes second nature.

[Toxguy]

@Murelli Thanks for taking a look. How can you tell I am rushing the start of the lift with my sumo? What should that look like? I can see it for my conventional, though. I am not trying to be defensive, but I have heard people mention both those cues to me many times before and I have no idea how to tell if I am doing them or not. For the sumo, I really felt like I was leg pressing the floor away. I really couldn't get 'my back' into it for the sumo. My glutes and quads are sore today! For my conventional I do feel like I yank it off the floor with a back extension as opposed to a knee extension, however.

[Murelli]

@Murelli Thanks for taking a look. How can you tell I am rushing the start of the lift with my sumo? What should that look like? I can see it for my conventional, though. I am not trying to be defensive, but I have heard people mention both those cues to me many times before and I have no idea how to tell if I am doing them or not. For the sumo, I really felt like I was leg pressing the floor away. I really couldn't get 'my back' into it for the sumo. My glutes and quads are sore today! For my conventional I do feel like I yank it off the floor with a back extension as opposed to a knee extension, however.

I believe you will have to learn to feel it. If you patiently lock your whole back (not only lower), tighten up the lats as if you were trying to squeeze a lemon between your shoulder blades, take the slack out of the bar by slightly pulling on the bar without taking it out of the floor and then focus on your back instead of the bar you can probably do this. You already know how to set up properly, it's just a matter of patience and focus with taking the bar off the floor.

Paused deadlifts 1 inch off the floor and maybe tempo deadlifts (5-0-0?) can help too.

[mgil]

@Toxguy, you do set your back better in sumo, that's for sure. Your sumo form needs to be even more vertical with slightly lower hips.

Based on the heuristic @KDW uses, you might be better suited for sumo pulling base on bone lengths.

[Toxguy]

@Murelli Thanks for taking a look. How can you tell I am rushing the start of the lift with my sumo? What should that look like? I can see it for my conventional, though. I am not trying to be defensive, but I have heard people mention both those cues to me many times before and I have no idea how to tell if I am doing them or not. For the sumo, I really felt like I was leg pressing the floor away. I really couldn't get 'my back' into it for the sumo. My glutes and quads are sore today! For my conventional I do feel like I yank it off the floor with a back extension as opposed to a knee extension, however.

I believe you will have to learn to feel it. If you patiently lock your whole back (not only lower), tighten up the lats as if you were trying to squeeze a lemon between your shoulder blades, take the slack out of the bar by slightly pulling on the bar without taking it out of the floor and then focus on your back instead of the bar you can probably do this. You already know how to set up properly, it's just a matter of patience and focus with taking the bar off the floor.

Paused deadlifts 1 inch off the floor and maybe tempo deadlifts (5-0-0?) can help too.

@Murelli Thanks man. That is reassuring. I have been looking at some Chris Duffin sumo DL videos and he talks a lot about bracing and taking the slack. That has helped a lot and I know I don't get nearly as 'tight' as he does.

[Toxguy]

@mgil Thanks. It felt night and day difference with setting the back. I never really had to think about it much with the sumo pulls yesterday, whereas with the conventional I had to really really focus on it, and I still might mess it up. So I am wondering if that is because of body lengths. Does @KDW have a chart somewhere? Or suggestions on body type? I think I am a fairly long legged dude with long arms as well. At any rate, I'll keep up with the sumo. I feel excited to DL now. What do you think @KoolaidMannn ?

[KoolaidMannn]

@Toxguy sumo looks much better than conventional.

I agree with others try to initiate the pull with only your legs.

I’d also say try to get your shoulders closer to the bar if possible, try thinking about sitting back and getting so tight that the weight just pops off the floor before you even pull it. You should be able to get it to float on warmups but definitely continue to do sumo!!


Let’s see an oblique 45° angle next, I wanna see what your feet and knees look like

[Sumo]

Also, get rid of the oly shoes when you sumo...you're blaspheming.

If you've just started I'd suggest you make friends with sumo off blocks, sumo paused below knees and sumo paused above knees. Between those 3 variations you'll very quickly figure out the sumo technique requirements.

[Toxguy]

@KoolaidMannn thanks dude!! I'll post that video here next time I pull. @Sumo hahah. I was wondering if somebody was going to comment on me pulling in Oly shoes. I'll go ahead and fix that. I have got sumo rack pulls tomorrow so good deal. Pretty much I do regular sumo pulls from the floor on Tues and sumo rack pulls on Friday. I may mix in some paused sumo pulls during my warmups on Tues just to get the feel down. Thanks guys.

[Toxguy]

Hey fellas
@KoolaidMannn , @mgil , etc.
Got a video today from the front quarter. Still need to get more vertical. But how does the stance (width, toe out) grip, etc. look?

My left quad has been seriously bothering me ever since I started pulling sumo. I think I just strained a muscle. Hurts like hell after the set is over. Did any of you guys have these growing pains when you started?

[cgeorg]

Not a sumo expert, but it looks like your knees could be wider at the start, to bring your hips in closer to the bar. May need to work on hip mobility to get there.

Sumo works the quads more than conventional so they may be seriously bothering you just dude to doing more work than they're used to.

[Sumo]

The most important thing for sumo, and it's generally the one thing most people don't have, is the hip flexibility to get into a good sumo pulling position. Right now I don't think you have the flexibility needed for sumo, you're 20%(maybe) of the way there. If you can't open the hips any more, get cracking on your flexibility and in the mean time use conventional or a narrow/hybrid sumo stance.

[Toxguy]

Thanks fellas. Yeah, my hip mobility is pathetic. I was trying to shove my knees out as hard as I could. Any particular favorite hip mobility exercises? I’ll go back to conventional and start implementing the mobility stuff as I imagine it’ll help my conventional as well

[Sumo]

I do yin yoga on my off days, to keep and improve flexibility and sometimes if I'm having some trouble falling asleep. Do not use this on the same day as one of your training session.


or

[KDW]

@mgil Thanks. It felt night and day difference with setting the back. I never really had to think about it much with the sumo pulls yesterday, whereas with the conventional I had to really really focus on it, and I still might mess it up. So I am wondering if that is because of body lengths. Does @KDW have a chart somewhere? Or suggestions on body type? I think I am a fairly long legged dude with long arms as well. At any rate, I'll keep up with the sumo. I feel excited to DL now. What do you think @KoolaidMannn ?

I have no charts. Sorry man. I basically look at the lifter and if they are setting up conventional with their chest in their knees or back angle is otherwise parallel/close to parallel or worse to the floor, I think that that lifter should switch to sumo. That lifter will never be able to deadlift conventional with a tight lower back. There's just no room for it. Usually a lifter like that is locking out very close to or even right on the genitals or possibly higher. This is not always the case.

I have seen seemingly long armed but extremely long legged individuals who lockout mid thigh but have a set up in which their back is parallel to the floor. Again, these lifters nearly almost always experience lumbar flexion as soon as the bar leaves the floor or right before the bar leaves the floor. They just can't engage the lower spinal erectors in that position because there is no room in the system to do so.

[Mugaaz]

Whenever I see people describing their ideal sumo candidates, it sounds like they're talking about me. I pull conventional, my back isn't quite parallel to the floor, but it is pretty close. However, I don't think I round very much at all, but I'll readily admit that it is a bit hard to tell cause I'm fatty fat fat.

[Toxguy]

Thanks @KDW. That is some good info! Do you think, based on the videos, that I fit the sumo body type? I tried pulling sumo for a couple weeks but it was wrecking my quads and adductors. So much so that it was affecting squats and deadlifts. My hip mobility is god awful as others have mentioned, so it may be quite sometime before I can pull decently sumo. I went back to regular conventional this week. Zero quad pain and was able to squat. No, my back is not perfectly flat, but it is what it is. I can get it flat and keep it flat at ‘light weights’ and rack pulls, though.

[RobUK]

I have no charts. Sorry man. I basically look at the lifter and if they are setting up conventional with their chest in their knees or back angle is otherwise parallel/close to parallel or worse to the floor, I think that that lifter should switch to sumo. That lifter will never be able to deadlift conventional with a tight lower back. There's just no room for it. Usually a lifter like that is locking out very close to or even right on the genitals or possibly higher. This is not always the case.

I have seen seemingly long armed but extremely long legged individuals who lockout mid thigh but have a set up in which their back is parallel to the floor. Again, these lifters nearly almost always experience lumbar flexion as soon as the bar leaves the floor or right before the bar leaves the floor. They just can't engage the lower spinal erectors in that position because there is no room in the system to do so.

Do you ever get clients to deadlift from blocks/do rack pulls in place of deads (assuming of course they are non competitors)?

I started deadlifting 15 years ago and I have always done it from blocks because I couldn't trust myself to get in the right position from the floor and I didn't want to risk back injury. At the time I put it down to hamstring flexibility and only recently have I realised it's not that surprising given I have long legs and short arms and lock out about level with where little Rob starts (obviously a comparison to where the genitals end adds another variable to the equation! )!

I went for deadlifting from blocks rather than sumo because sumo = bad in the good blue book. I really like the feel of the movement and for the purpose of building back strength/size it seems to me my body is going through a similar range of motion to somebody lifting from the floor with more average arm/leg length proportions.

Since reading more about sumo on this forum I've started practicing it and intend to alternate for my new cycle so I can get a legit deadlift total but also continue to progress form blocks.

Anyhow, just wondering whether you feel deadlifting from blocks is a viable option?

[KoolaidMannn]

@Toxguy yeah I had some serious growing pains with sumo. Would limp after sets sometimes especially once the intensity got higher. But that all went away after a couple months.