westside: the easy way is the smart way

[Hamburgerfan]

I have a bunch of thoughts on this that I'd like to turn into an article at some point, but I need to run this for longer to confirm/refute some of my suspicions on the subject. This thread could serve as a general westside/conjugate discussion thread, or to discuss the idea of reaching the same strength levels with easier programming.

I've achieved a 600 lb deadlift using two different training programs. The first had me pulling 3 times a week, one day of heavy singles, one day of medium doubles, and one day of light snatch grips. It got me strong, but it was an incredibly stupid program. It beat me up way too much. My hand muscles were constantly trashed, I lost a lot of weight and I often had to force myself to ignore hip pain in order to complete my workout. It was completely unsustainable and after setting a new PR I couldn't bring myself to keep training like that and I just fucked around for a whole year.

This spring/summer I started using the conjugate method again and my deadlift has completely turned around. I'm in close range of my all time PR, and the training feels downright easy. The effort/results ratio has changed so drastically that I'm convinced this shit is magical if you set it up right. The following is a basic summary of my deadlift training.

Max effort:
alternate weekly between a box squat or some kind of deadlift. I don't go too crazy with variations, but stick to stuff like low rack pulls, 2" deficit, snatch grip, and the occasional heavy sumo pull. I try to work up to a PR single in a short period of time. It takes me maybe 20 minutes from my first warmup to my heaviest single.

Dynamic effort
I do about 10 singles each week after box squatting. I alternate between using 50-60% with bands, or 75% or so with straight weight. Sometimes I use sumo pulls for 3 weeks with the same percentages. I don't think too much about it, I just try to pull fast. I only rest about 30 seconds between reps, so this is not a large time investment.

Repeated effort
Hamstrings are the most important method for my deadlift, so I train them more than I train anything else. I almost always do good mornings after my max effort exercise for 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps, ramping up to 1 big set. I also do GHRs, banded leg curls, back extensions, kettlebell swings, and reverse hypers. I think I get the best results from GHRs so I try to keep them in all the time. As I do more high rep hamstring work and get stronger at these little exercises, I pull better and feel better. I don't have any hip pain or back pain at all anymore.

Grip work
After my max effort work I work up to a max single or triple on double overhand deadlift lockouts. The weight and ROM are small enough that I can do these without fatiguing the rest of my body, so I superset this with the rest of my assistance work.

[tersh]

Neat. Seems like there aren't too many folks on the site taking this kind of approach.
But it clearly seems to be working for you, you put up some big numbers these days.

[RobUK]

I'd be interested to hear about the rest of your current programming, are you using conjugate method for presses too?

[mgil]

After being a bit open-minded to other training methods, my only contention with Westside stuff is that you need a boatload of bands, chains, racks, and machines to do most of the assistance work.

If you’re in a well-equipped gym, this isn’t an issue. If you aren’t, you’ve got to get creative or go to simpler schemes.

[hector]

I would like to read your article. I hope you write it.

[MattimusMaximus]

After being a bit open-minded to other training methods, my only contention with Westside stuff is that you need a boatload of bands, chains, racks, and machines to do most of the assistance work.

If you’re in a well-equipped gym, this isn’t an issue. If you aren’t, you’ve got to get creative or go to simpler schemes.

^This

I've been interested in learning Westside stuff but I'll admit all the chains/bands/machines/etc. seems intimidating for a basement gym goer.

[mgil]

After being a bit open-minded to other training methods, my only contention with Westside stuff is that you need a boatload of bands, chains, racks, and machines to do most of the assistance work.

If you’re in a well-equipped gym, this isn’t an issue. If you aren’t, you’ve got to get creative or go to simpler schemes.

^This

I've been interested in learning Westside stuff but I'll admit all the chains/bands/machines/etc. seems intimidating for a basement gym goer.

@Hamburgerfan, I’d recommend writing up your article and expporing ideas for home gym folks to incorporate. That would start an interesting and helpful conversation.

[SeanHerbison]

I don't mind the conjugate method as its own thing (as in, I haven't tried, but I'm not violently opposed to it like some people seem to be), but personally, Westside bugs me.

And hey, timely video!



Louie's done a ton for powerlifting, but whether that's a good thing or not, well... I'll leave that to the individual. In some ways I think he's a genius. In other ways, I don't understand his logic at all.


But regardless of all that, I'd definitely like to see all your thoughts gathered in one place for reading and discussion.

[Hamburgerfan]

I'd be interested to hear about the rest of your current programming, are you using conjugate method for presses too?

I am, but there's not as much to write about. I just try to slowly get stronger, but I haven't found the keys to easy progress like I have for my deadlift, so I don't have much content to add. I try to work my triceps a lot.

I don't mind the conjugate method as its own thing (as in, I haven't tried, but I'm not violently opposed to it like some people seem to be), but personally, Westside bugs me.

And hey, timely video!



Louie's done a ton for powerlifting, but whether that's a good thing or not, well... I'll leave that to the individual. In some ways I think he's a genius. In other ways, I don't understand his logic at all.


But regardless of all that, I'd definitely like to see all your thoughts gathered in one place for reading and discussion.

His meets in recent years are a shitshow, but I think his general philosophy on training is pretty spot on. I don't agree with every aspect of it, most of which is a product of his own training biases, but I think the basic principles are solid. It doesn't help that he's a terrible communicator. It would be a lot more difficult to use these methods correctly if it weren't for Dave Tate, Matt Wenning, Jim Wendler, Mike Hedlesky and others who are able to explain them in greater detail and provide valuable context. I don't like 5/3/1, but Jim Wendler's max effort ebook is great for explaining the conjugate method in a way that a beginner can understand it. It's easy to find online.

After being a bit open-minded to other training methods, my only contention with Westside stuff is that you need a boatload of bands, chains, racks, and machines to do most of the assistance work.

If you’re in a well-equipped gym, this isn’t an issue. If you aren’t, you’ve got to get creative or go to simpler schemes.

^This

I've been interested in learning Westside stuff but I'll admit all the chains/bands/machines/etc. seems intimidating for a basement gym goer.

@Hamburgerfan, I’d recommend writing up your article and expporing ideas for home gym folks to incorporate. That would start an interesting and helpful conversation.

Matt Ladewski wrote a series of articles about this on elitefts. Never tried the example training plan but it has some interesting ideas on how to apply conjugate programming with minimal equipment.

[PatrickDB]

I want to nerd out with you about this, @Hamburgerfan. Here are some various questions.

1) I'm doing a DUP program with Hanley right now. It's 3x/week M/W/F, HPS setup. Front squats are done every day, deadlifts are M (doubles at 70%)/F(singles at 80%) with a ton of chins on W. Do you have any Westside-inspired ideas to help us trick this out and improve the deadlift gains?

2) Do you think it's worth it to learn and train sumo pulling as a variant lift if I only really care about my conventional pull?

3) How do you feel about hamstring curls done on a leg curl attachment to a weight bench?

4) I have access to chains but have never used them. Do you think they're useful?

[Hamburgerfan]

1 - Those percentages are good. 70-80% for singles and doubles is a good spot for DE pulls if bands and chains aren't used. I'd think about throwing in a 90%+ pull every now and then, but Han-Ley knows his shit so I'm sure his plan will work. Just focus on pulling every rep fast.

2 - Maybe. If you want to try, then switch one of your two pulling days to sumo for a few weeks. When I do that, conventional moves a little better immediately afterward. Don't worry about trying to get too "technical" with it though. A moderate stance is easy to learn, and is close enough to conventional to carry over well.

3 - I haven't done them on a bench attachment in years, but I like hamstring curls a lot. Seated hamstring curls with a band are good if you have access to one.

4 - Yes, absolutely. Chains are easier to set up than bands and feel much more natural. How much chain weight do you have?

[PatrickDB]

Yeah, I think we're going to throw some heavier singles in at some point. I believe we're in a quasi-hypertrophy block right now.

What's so great about chains? I would think (naively) that since most deadlifters are weakest right off the floor, overloading the top of the movement would not be so useful. What's wrong with this reasoning? I'm not sure how much chain weight I have, but I think a lot, and I'd be happy to buy the gym more if I thought I'd benefit from it.

[Hamburgerfan]

I wouldn't say that most deadlifters are weakest right off the floor. There's a lot of variety in raw deadlift sticking points compared to the squat and the bench. I'm weakest from just below the knee to just above.

If you are weakest just off the floor, chains will let you overload the top of the lift while still training the entire range of motion. Theoretically this increases the training effect of the exercise, as the strong part gets stronger without neglecting the weak part. Chains can give you some of the benefits of working with heavy weights without beating you up as much or sacrificing bar speed. They are also a good feedback tool for teaching you to pull faster without messing with your form, like bands have the potential to do.

[unruhschuh]

1) I'm doing a DUP program with Hanley right now. It's 3x/week M/W/F, HPS setup. Front squats are done every day, deadlifts are M (doubles at 70%)/F(singles at 80%) with a ton of chins on W. Do you have any Westside-inspired ideas to help us trick this out and improve the deadlift gains?

How many sets do you do of deadlift doubles at 70% on monday? Is it considered hypertrophy work? Why no power day for deadlifts?

[cgeorg]

How many sets do you do of deadlift doubles at 70% on monday? Is it considered hypertrophy work? Why no power day for deadlifts?

In the program I built for myself, I also got rid of power deadlifts, for ... 3 reasons I suppose.

1) Deadlifts seem to need the least volume, so just cutting a day made sense.
2) Deadlifts tend to be a slow lift - even with lighter weights I'm not trying to hit lockout at full speed, so power day made sense to be the one to drop.
3) Overall low back fatigue needs to be managed, so putting squat power day on Wednesday, which should have a minimal fatigue effect and will likely contribute to active recovery, leaves squat strength + deadlift hypertrophy on Monday, and deadlift strength + squat hypertrophy on Friday - this layout for heavy squat/dead has worked well for me managing fatigue in the fast.

For my deadlift hypertrophy I'm doing SGDLs, 5x4@70, with another 13 total reps of conventional on Friday. Will titrate up if the volume is recoverable.

[PatrickDB]

1) I'm doing a DUP program with Hanley right now. It's 3x/week M/W/F, HPS setup. Front squats are done every day, deadlifts are M (doubles at 70%)/F(singles at 80%) with a ton of chins on W. Do you have any Westside-inspired ideas to help us trick this out and improve the deadlift gains?

How many sets do you do of deadlift doubles at 70% on monday? Is it considered hypertrophy work? Why no power day for deadlifts?

@Hanley can answer this better than I can. I just do what the boss says.

[asd]

It's good to have this, @Hamburgerfan, I have been seeing less and less of this style of training. When I was starting out a decade ago it was very popular, and it reminds me of powerlifting when it was smaller, before RAW lifting became very popular with the influence of Xfit, etc. Maybe you know what I mean.

[thejosef]

Thanks for posting @Hamburgerfan. I hope you can get around to putting together an article. I'd definitely be interested.

I may move to something conjugate this year, mainly out of boredom... I just want to try something new & different than what I've been doing the past few years. I have looked at a Conjugate setup by Brian Alsruhe recently and was pretty intrigued. I need to buy some chains though and they ain't cheap with shipping.

[augeleven]

So would the max effort day be similar to the intensity day of TM? Would the same criticisms apply?

[Hamburgerfan]

So would the max effort day be similar to the intensity day of TM? Would the same criticisms apply?

If you believe grinding regularly is inherently bad, then the same criticisms still apply. Having done both, it’s different in a few ways, and I think it avoids some of the pitfalls.
1: singles are typically used for max Effort, instead of a 5rm. This tends to maintain better technique, and I believe it’s less risky, as you’re grinding in a fresh state instead of a fatigued state.

2: exercises are rotated to keep progress coming each week. Over the long term, this is much more sustainable than just throwing 5 more pounds on the bar and repeating the same workout.

3: ideally, you should have a fairly relaxed mental state while maxing out in training. Compare this to voluntary hardship and seeing Jesus on the platform.