RTS's Emerging Strategies

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damufunman
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RTS's Emerging Strategies

#1

Post by damufunman » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:29 am

A few questions came up about how one goes about adjusting programming on different time scales (daily, weekly, multi-weekly) using RPE-based programming. I really like Mike T's (and possibly RTS as a whole, but I think Mike developed it?) approach of Emerging Strategies, which is a more flexible, bottom up approach to training planning. Here's a video of his presentation of it:

Highlights are
  • Long term planning is often overly restrictive, and doesn't allow the lifter to deviate to take advantage if they are progressing more rapidly than expected
  • More traditional periodization assumes some amount of knowledge ahead of time on weaknesses and assistance work to address that, whereas this approach allows rapid testing and evaluation of what is driving progress
  • Requires much more detailed tracking of variables and some more advanced data analysis, that may be better automated (incidentally, exactly what the RTS app can do)
I think this method of programming looks to be a much more data driven and - I hate to use this term - dynamic way of doing things that could potentially get closer to "optimal" training, especially for more advanced lifters, and possibly even for those less experienced, given the appropriate tools are available (ie, lifter knows how to effectively, correctly, and accurately use RPE).

Given some of the other discussions going on in the strength world, this is definitely an interesting take on the programming problem, and I think a step in the right direction toward "optimal", since that seems to be a big deal these days.
Last edited by damufunman on Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#2

Post by LexAnderson » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:34 am

I saw this video on my recommended list this morning on YouTube, I plan on watching it later, this only peaks my interest even further.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#3

Post by timelinex » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:09 am

It's nothing ground breaking but it's a good video. I saw this a few days ago and this was my comment on there:

So this looks like this is taking:

1. Your RPE philosophy
2. Rippetoe/Baker (and not just them) style of stick with the basics and what works for you until it doesn't work and then you make a small change.
3. Mike israetel's finding your MEV and MRV (essentially finding that peak) and running cycles over and over between those.

and putting it all together. Right?

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#4

Post by Manveer » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:52 am

In the world of powerlifting programming, it is kinda revolutionary. A lot more customized to an individual’s response than “hey, here’s a 6-week template”.

I’m pretty happy with the way things are going with this programming.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#5

Post by LexAnderson » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:06 am

Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:52 am In the world of powerlifting programming, it is kinda revolutionary. A lot more customized to an individual’s response than “hey, here’s a 6-week template”.

I’m pretty happy with the way things are going with this programming.
It's really encouraging to see this, as well as coaches who actually look at the lifters performances instead of just recycling templates.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#6

Post by RobUK » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:11 am

Am I right in thinking that the programme would be written with RPE targets so over the course of a 'block' loads should increase automatically?

EDIT - I totally should have waited until finishing the video as he answers the above question! (It's yes btw).

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#7

Post by timelinex » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:01 pm

Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:52 am In the world of powerlifting programming, it is kinda revolutionary. A lot more customized to an individual’s response than “hey, here’s a 6-week template”.

I’m pretty happy with the way things are going with this programming.
I obviously don't have much experience with the powerlifting community but.... Isn't that what people always paid coaches for? If they were just using the same template everyone else was using, I feel like that client was getting ripped off. You start off with a template that has worked for the coach and then they customize it for you as they gauge your response. The difference here seems to be that he is saying we should stay away from unneeded variation and keep sticking with something if it works (a.k.a rippetoe), and that instead of just varying stress we should bring up stress weekly up to your peak and then deload (a.k.a Israetel).

Maybe I'm just being dense and missing something. But I really don't see the huge innovation.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#8

Post by Manveer » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:34 pm

timelinex wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:01 pm
Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:52 am In the world of powerlifting programming, it is kinda revolutionary. A lot more customized to an individual’s response than “hey, here’s a 6-week template”.

I’m pretty happy with the way things are going with this programming.
I obviously don't have much experience with the powerlifting community but.... Isn't that what people always paid coaches for? If they were just using the same template everyone else was using, I feel like that client was getting ripped off. You start off with a template that has worked for the coach and then they customize it for you as they gauge your response. The difference here seems to be that he is saying we should stay away from unneeded variation and keep sticking with something if it works (a.k.a rippetoe), and that instead of just varying stress we should bring up stress weekly up to your peak and then deload (a.k.a Israetel).

Maybe I'm just being dense and missing something. But I really don't see the huge innovation.
As far as using a given template and applying it to widely to all trainees with minimal customization - I agree, that is a ripoff. This is what SSOC does with intermediates - either TM or HLM. A lot of other coaches do this too, from what I have heard.

Traditional block periodization uses fixed block lengths and don't take into account whether the individual is still improving or not through the developmental phase. X weeks accumulation, Y weeks transmutation, Z week(s) realization. Can you make X longer and make more progress before deloading? Should it have been shorter because the lifter stopped responding after 3 weeks? Does the lifter underperform their training on the platform because of the length/intensity of Y and Z? I don't think most coaches customize to this degree.

Also, you basically train up to the meet with a few days off. There's no peaking really.

@Hanley, @Cody, @KOTJ are more students of programming than I am - maybe they can weigh in and tell me I'm wrong.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#9

Post by damufunman » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:35 pm

I think it's revolutionary as Manveer says because most advanced lifters typically don't use a template, but have a full 12 weeks or something like that planned out to the last rep. The RTS approach is more fluid, with a rough outline of what work is done throughout the week, and then used RPE to adjust the intensity, and (though I think less so now) the volume. I mean, yeah there's an expectation of increases week to week, on average, but there's also a feedback aspect that can pick out where some programming choices, like reps or variations, may not be working and allowing it to change mid cycle.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#10

Post by damufunman » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:37 pm

Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:34 pm Also, you basically train up to the meet with a few days off. There's no peaking really.
I wonder how Mike came up with his peaking strategy/observation of peak condition, separate from a planned peak.
@Hanley, @Cody, @KOTJ are more students of programming than I am - maybe they can weigh in and tell me I'm wrong.
+1 For me, not you Manveer

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#11

Post by timelinex » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:39 pm

Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:34 pm
timelinex wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:01 pm
Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:52 am In the world of powerlifting programming, it is kinda revolutionary. A lot more customized to an individual’s response than “hey, here’s a 6-week template”.

I’m pretty happy with the way things are going with this programming.
I obviously don't have much experience with the powerlifting community but.... Isn't that what people always paid coaches for? If they were just using the same template everyone else was using, I feel like that client was getting ripped off. You start off with a template that has worked for the coach and then they customize it for you as they gauge your response. The difference here seems to be that he is saying we should stay away from unneeded variation and keep sticking with something if it works (a.k.a rippetoe), and that instead of just varying stress we should bring up stress weekly up to your peak and then deload (a.k.a Israetel).

Maybe I'm just being dense and missing something. But I really don't see the huge innovation.
As far as using a given template and applying it to widely to all trainees with minimal customization - I agree, that is a ripoff. This is what SSOC does with intermediates - either TM or HLM. A lot of other coaches do this too, from what I have heard.

Traditional block periodization uses fixed block lengths and don't take into account whether the individual is still improving or not through the developmental phase. X weeks accumulation, Y weeks transmutation, Z week(s) realization. Can you make X longer and make more progress before deloading? Should it have been shorter because the lifter stopped responding after 3 weeks? Does the lifter underperform their training on the platform because of the length/intensity of Y and Z? I don't think most coaches customize to this degree.

Also, you basically train up to the meet with a few days off. There's no peaking really.

@Hanley, @Cody, @KOTJ are more students of programming than I am - maybe they can weigh in and tell me I'm wrong.
Interesting.

I've never been coached so I don't know how it works. I'm just basing my reply based off Israetels well known boook on programming. He definitely does not recommend doing specific length blocks. He is extremely big on accumulating until you "peak" (or rather break). Mike has even wrote an entire book on just how to find that peak (and the start). So maybe this is new for the majority of the coaching world. I just figured that if I have read it, people that are on the forefront of programming had to have read it as well.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#12

Post by Manveer » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:40 pm

damufunman wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:37 pm
Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:34 pm Also, you basically train up to the meet with a few days off. There's no peaking really.
I wonder how Mike came up with his peaking strategy/observation of peak condition, separate from a planned peak.
They talk about it here: https://youtu.be/tnfLrC6ZTlE

Basically lots of observation of lifters going to meets. OTOH, Chad Wesley Smith claims he is a master of peaking and can generate huge PRs on meet day. Maybe just his personality/response to the meet environment, I dunno.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#13

Post by timelinex » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:41 pm

Let's put it this way, you can just glance at my thread on programming that I made before this video:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=885

It's quit literally what he is saying...I have it as 4 weeks then deload, but I specifically say that I would keep going up and accumulating past 4 weeks if I didn't peak yet.

And this was all based on my interpretation of Mike Israetel's literature..... A.K.A while everything Tuchscherer is saying makes sense, it doesn't seem like a new thought at all.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#14

Post by KOTJ » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:56 pm

@Manveer I'm still noobish but...

I always determine someoness goals before programming. I don't really have a strict time for each block, especially since some people do better with certain peaking lengths.

For my guy that did really well at his January USPA meet, I was updating programming each week, then a daily basis for the last 4-5 weeks. His school schedule was shit and he was traveling a lot.

When people have certain injuries, the same stuff applies. A guy with his first meet in December had rotating hip, back, and pec/shoulder injuries and were getting to the point I wanted to tell him to drop it.

I was updating his stuff weekly, and he set some PRs meet day.

I don't necessarily use fixed lengths for each block. It really depends on how things are trending. It can get tricky/frustrating with people that don't have RPE dialed in, or when form fucks with rpe...or when people are losing weight and barely sleeping and don't tell you, so you worry that you suck and aren't getting them their money's worth

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Re: RTS's Emerging Strategies

#15

Post by PatrickDB » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:24 pm

John Kiely talks about similar things in his publications on periodization:

Paper 1: https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ion-Driven

Paper 2: https://link.springer.com/article/10.10 ... 017-0823-y

Anyone interested in the first two bullet points of the original post should read these, imo.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#16

Post by damufunman » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:22 am

Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:40 pm
damufunman wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:37 pm
Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:34 pm Also, you basically train up to the meet with a few days off. There's no peaking really.
I wonder how Mike came up with his peaking strategy/observation of peak condition, separate from a planned peak.
They talk about it here: https://youtu.be/tnfLrC6ZTlE

Basically lots of observation of lifters going to meets. OTOH, Chad Wesley Smith claims he is a master of peaking and can generate huge PRs on meet day. Maybe just his personality/response to the meet environment, I dunno.
RTS uses what seems to me like more of a personal time to peak that varies from lifter to lifter. With other periodized approaches it seems like the peak is really driven by the program, whereas RTS plans the cycles based on a particular lifters' response and how long they take with a particular training plan to reach peak performance. I imagine they do something along the lines of a drop in volume and an increase in intensity, but (at least my understanding) they also seem to try to match a lifter's adaptation rate to a particular cycle. Am I understanding the approach right, and if so isn't this quite different from a more traditional periodized plan?

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#17

Post by timelinex » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:01 am

damufunman wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:22 am
Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:40 pm
damufunman wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:37 pm
Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:34 pm Also, you basically train up to the meet with a few days off. There's no peaking really.
I wonder how Mike came up with his peaking strategy/observation of peak condition, separate from a planned peak.
They talk about it here: https://youtu.be/tnfLrC6ZTlE

Basically lots of observation of lifters going to meets. OTOH, Chad Wesley Smith claims he is a master of peaking and can generate huge PRs on meet day. Maybe just his personality/response to the meet environment, I dunno.
RTS uses what seems to me like more of a personal time to peak that varies from lifter to lifter. With other periodized approaches it seems like the peak is really driven by the program, whereas RTS plans the cycles based on a particular lifters' response and how long they take with a particular training plan to reach peak performance. I imagine they do something along the lines of a drop in volume and an increase in intensity, but (at least my understanding) they also seem to try to match a lifter's adaptation rate to a particular cycle. Am I understanding the approach right, and if so isn't this quite different from a more traditional periodized plan?
I think what keeps muddying the waters here is, what do you mean by "traditional". If you are talking about copy paste templates, then yea, they are all mostly just x weeks of accumulation and then a deload. That's what makes copy paste templates not optimal in the first place. But if you are talking about custom programs (like if you have a coach), thats where I am saying I'm not so sure this is new considering there has been well known books written on it.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#18

Post by Manveer » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:23 pm

damufunman wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:22 am
Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:40 pm
damufunman wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:37 pm
Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:34 pm Also, you basically train up to the meet with a few days off. There's no peaking really.
I wonder how Mike came up with his peaking strategy/observation of peak condition, separate from a planned peak.
They talk about it here: https://youtu.be/tnfLrC6ZTlE

Basically lots of observation of lifters going to meets. OTOH, Chad Wesley Smith claims he is a master of peaking and can generate huge PRs on meet day. Maybe just his personality/response to the meet environment, I dunno.
RTS uses what seems to me like more of a personal time to peak that varies from lifter to lifter. With other periodized approaches it seems like the peak is really driven by the program, whereas RTS plans the cycles based on a particular lifters' response and how long they take with a particular training plan to reach peak performance. I imagine they do something along the lines of a drop in volume and an increase in intensity, but (at least my understanding) they also seem to try to match a lifter's adaptation rate to a particular cycle. Am I understanding the approach right, and if so isn't this quite different from a more traditional periodized plan?
I think it’s different in that there’s no “transmutation” or “realization” - or it’s really brief.

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Re: RTS's Emerging Strategies

#19

Post by d0uevenlift » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:01 pm

I wonder what difference it makes to take what’s there on a given day when you can absolutely take more than planned. On one hand, you’ve got Mike T saying if you’re feeling good on a particular training session, and you can add more weight than planned to the bar, take advantage of that. On the other hand, you have CWS who tries to stick to percentages (idk if he still does this) as best he can, which means if you can do more on a given day, you stick to the plan.

Ultimately, I’m not so sure it makes a big difference in the long term, but I don’t know. I know that in the past, if I was feeling really good and added another 5-10lbs to the bar because I could, it would make me feel a little more fatigued than normal for the following session. But that’s my experience.

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Re: RTSs Emerging Strategies

#20

Post by damufunman » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:24 pm

timelinex wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:01 am
damufunman wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:22 am
Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:40 pm
damufunman wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:37 pm
Manveer wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:34 pm Also, you basically train up to the meet with a few days off. There's no peaking really.
I wonder how Mike came up with his peaking strategy/observation of peak condition, separate from a planned peak.
They talk about it here: https://youtu.be/tnfLrC6ZTlE

Basically lots of observation of lifters going to meets. OTOH, Chad Wesley Smith claims he is a master of peaking and can generate huge PRs on meet day. Maybe just his personality/response to the meet environment, I dunno.
RTS uses what seems to me like more of a personal time to peak that varies from lifter to lifter. With other periodized approaches it seems like the peak is really driven by the program, whereas RTS plans the cycles based on a particular lifters' response and how long they take with a particular training plan to reach peak performance. I imagine they do something along the lines of a drop in volume and an increase in intensity, but (at least my understanding) they also seem to try to match a lifter's adaptation rate to a particular cycle. Am I understanding the approach right, and if so isn't this quite different from a more traditional periodized plan?
I think what keeps muddying the waters here is, what do you mean by "traditional". If you are talking about copy paste templates, then yea, they are all mostly just x weeks of accumulation and then a deload. That's what makes copy paste templates not optimal in the first place. But if you are talking about custom programs (like if you have a coach), thats where I am saying I'm not so sure this is new considering there has been well known books written on it.
I'm referring to the latter. And yeah, I guess the ideas aren't that different: preform competition movements, variations for weaknesses/lighter volume, higher intensity closer to competition. But the planning side of it is different in the approach, starting with the microcycle, stringing those together, and building a meso/macrocycle from there and adjusting as needed.

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