Exodus Strength

mbasic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:48 pm
This is some kind of weird double speak^; you are trying to separate the athlete-person from his athletic abilities that some of which were gained through their more modern and better training. I don't think yon can/should do that, or how you'd differentiate the two.


Applied sports science. I agree we probably don't know much as in the totality of sport science, but we know a lot more NOW than what was known BEFORE. Leaps and bounds. But how we apply it now (IMO) maybe getting more fucked up from around this point (last 5 years) going forward. Most everything in terms of general basic athletics (T&F, Weightlifting, run fast, throw far, etc) has peaked, or nearly so ..... that last 90% of soprts-sci knowledge, isn't going to bump the needle much because of basic physics.

I am saying, I thought clearly but I guess not, that in fact more than physical ability must be considered in the determination. Certain aspects of performance displayed by modern athletes are surely a result of advances in training and sports science, so how do you account for that in making comparisons? Are they better athletes or better trained athletes? The person matters in addition to the physical ability. I think steroids were totally legal across the board until 1986 or 1987, and gradually banned after that. I know baseball banned it much later.
I don't think we can even guess at what scientific advances might do for athletic performance, people have been saying we have peaked for decades and they have consostently been wrong.

asdf wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:47 pm @Hardartery @aurelius
Your debate reminds me of The Sports Gene by David Epstein. There's a whole chapter on vision and reaction time that explains why no MLB players were able to hit SOFTBALLS pitched UNDERHAND by Jennie Finch. Basically, they'd developed the ability to pick up on visual cues during baseball pitches. When they get hits in baseball, they aren't reacting to the ball after it leaves the pitcher's hand -- there's not enough time. And that's why they whiffed on the softball pitches. The visual cues are different (underhand throw vs. overhand, different size ball with different seams, etc.), and their (mediocre) reaction times couldn't save them. If it's true that a puck travels faster than a fastball, then the same thing is probably happening in hockey.

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/209160709

Sounds reasonable to me.

asdf wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:45 pmRousey's problem was that she didn't know how to shoot a double-leg.

And not get punched in the face. If I was a cynic, I'd say the UFC fed Rousey unskilled fighters for the hype and $$$. Amanda Nunes and Holly Holmes were around when Rousey got started in MMA. Once Rousey got through the unskilled competition, she had to fight real fighters and uh oh spaghetti-O. To watch Rousey charge head first with no defense at a striker of Holly Holmes' caliber was just unreal. It was criminal for the corner to let her go back out in the second round. I am a believer that corners should stop more fights when their fighter is no longer competitive. But then we wouldn't have Leon Edwards knock out of Usman. So fuck if I know.

While we are on the subject: why not an MMA fighter?
Mastery of multiple physical disciplines - CHECK
Competes in well-participated sport - CHECK
Requires high level of physicality - CHECK
Requires high level of conditioning - CHECK
Requires explosiveness and power - CHECK

St. Pierre?

asdf wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:47 pmhttps://www.npr.org/transcripts/209160709

Science: ruining everything since 1687.

aurelius wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:17 pm
While we are on the subject: why not an MMA fighter?
Mastery of multiple physical disciplines - CHECK
Competes in well-participated sport - CHECK
Requires high level of physicality - CHECK
Requires high level of conditioning - CHECK
Requires explosiveness and power - CHECK

St. Pierre?

I'd say the greatest test of skill and athleticism is a fight to near death with another near equal man. MMA covers all the bases - wrestling, striking, strength, endurance, skill, timing, toughness, determination, thick skull:). Fedor in his prime was pretty much unbeatable. It's interesting how eastern europeans and Slavs are now dominating boxing and MMA.

Edit - Another great athlete is Alex Ovechkin - He will soon overtake Gretzky for scoring the most goals, yet at 6'3" 236 lbs is as tough as they come on the ice. He absolutely devastates other players with hits, outskates them, and has the finesse to be the best pure goal scorer in league history. Hockey requires extreme cardio fitness, great eye/hand coordination, speed and explosiveness, toughness, and strength. If Ovechkin didn't have to maintain his extreme level of cardio he'd be an absolute monster physically.

Skid wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:16 pm
I'd say the greatest test of skill and athleticism is a fight to near death with another near equal man. MMA covers all the bases - wrestling, striking, strength, endurance, skill, timing, toughness, determination, thick skull:). Fedor in his prime was pretty much unbeatable. It's interesting how eastern europeans and Slavs are now dominating boxing and MMA.

That's true, but they also compete in weight classes. They are only the "best" because they don't have to fight someone bigger and stronger.

How do you think Fedor (6-0, 230lbs) would do in a fight against some random NFL OL, like maybe Daniel Faalele? (6-8, 380lbs)

JonA wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:32 am How do you think Fedor (6-0, 230lbs) would do in a fight against some random NFL OL, like maybe Daniel Faalele? (6-8, 380lbs)

He'd absolutely kick their ass. Check out his fights with Zulu or Hong Choi, about the same size yet trained fighters. He made a career of beating roided up fighters.

aurelius wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:20 pm Conditioning is interesting as an athletic quality to mention. What type of conditioning? The ability to perform moderate activity for long periods? Almost anyone with 'normal' genetics can train that conditioning to a high level.

I suppose this is true for a sufficiently relaxed definition of "high level", but it's not very compelling. There have been, what, fifteen billion people who survived to adulthood since reliable stopwatches were invented, basically every one of them ran at least a few steps at some point, maybe a hundred guys have broken 3:55 in the mile.

From what @Skid and @aurelius have said, why not Mariusz Pudzianowski? If you think about it, great athletes are fast, strong, and coordinated; Mariusz wasn't the most statically strong guy and isn't the best cage fighter, but he's pretty solid in them and had a crazy high work capacity to boot.

This is kinda a lol answer to the question, but he does check a lot of boxes even if he's bat shit crazy.

Skid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:32 am

JonA wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:32 am How do you think Fedor (6-0, 230lbs) would do in a fight against some random NFL OL, like maybe Daniel Faalele? (6-8, 380lbs)

He'd absolutely kick their ass. Check out his fights with Zulu or Hong Choi, about the same size yet trained fighters. He made a career of beating roided up fighters.

Agree 100% Fedor would win.

I miss the freak show fights of Pride. UFC is OK for sure, but spectacle fights are just done better by Japan.

Speaking of which, I might pick, if not Fedor, then Sakuraba as greatest arhlete. Both destroyed fighters who were so much bigger

Skid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:32 am He made a career of beating roided up fighters.

True, although Randleman nearly killed him.

asdf wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:17 pm

Skid wrote: ↑Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:32 am He made a career of beating roided up fighters.

True, although Randleman nearly killed him.

Apparently Fedor suffered from neck issues ever since that suplex. I'm surprised his neck wasn't broken. Probably the greatest suplex of all time. Fedor still submitted him though.

These discussions always comes to an impasse over the ontological status of actuality vs potentiality.

In no particular order:

Mark Henry
Paul Anderson
Ryan Crouser
Usain Bolt
Lasha Talakhadze
Shaq

+ some of those NFL freaks (I don't follow the sport so can't name any)