Austin wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:34 pm<>
I see GM squatting as the symptom, with a few different potential causes. 1) Excessively focusing on "hip drive", i.e., throwing the hips up (or worse - back) as hard as possible without regard for anything else. 2) Insufficient quad strength is another (and over time may plausibly result from the first). 3) "Looseness" as a cause is ... a bit nebulous, but ok -- this is along the lines of traditional SS thinking, where the GM squat results when you fail to maintain isometric hamstring contraction out of the bottom (which Nuckols would argue is probably happening because there is insufficient quad strength to overcome the hamstrings' knee flexion force).
I like having people do tempo squats and cue them to keep their knees forward longer as they drive up out of the bottom to teach them how the pattern should go.
Back in the OP, I cited Chad Wesley Smith and Greg Nuckols as suggesting insufficient quad strength as a cause. CWS says that additional evidence for this would be a deadlift that's much stronger than the squat, which happens to be my situation. The body relies on the stronger hips at the expense of the weaker quads, resulting in excessive hip drive, forward lean, bar too far forward.
Would you do any direct quad work? If so, what?
Tempo squats (and pause squats) allow me to feel the bar going forward, which is helpful. Pin squats were suggested earlier, which seem to be the same idea.
Keeping knees forward longer would help, as would @Hanley's warning about knee-extension-absent-hip-extension, as both knees and hips go back at the start of the ascent (and the knee bone's connected to the hip bone).
quark wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:31 am
Back in the OP, I cited Chad Wesley Smith and Greg Nuckols as suggesting insufficient quad strength as a cause. CWS says that additional evidence for this would be a deadlift that's much stronger than the squat, which happens to be my situation. The body relies on the stronger hips at the expense of the weaker quads, resulting in excessive hip drive, forward lean, bar too far forward.
Would you do any direct quad work? If so, what?
Tempo squats (and pause squats) allow me to feel the bar going forward, which is helpful. Pin squats were suggested earlier, which seem to be the same idea.
Keeping knees forward longer would help, as would @Hanley's warning about knee-extension-absent-hip-extension, as both knees and hips go back at the start of the ascent (and the knee bone's connected to the hip bone).
I'd first find a weight where you can execute the movement correctly, and accumulate more training volume at/below that weight.
Direct quad work may have a place, depending on the context of your program. I program belt squats and leg presses for folks all the time, if available. If not, high bar squats are probably my next choice to get more squat work in with a bit less back fatigue (and, of course, they should be performed with weights where you don't end up "low-barring" them).
KDW wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:53 pm
@Wilhelm , In the post where I mention a common error in the squat, yes, tightness was part of that but the main thing I was trying to show there was that there are a ton of people trying to squat with their lumbar spines in hyperextension. Instead of "hinging at the hips" while keeping the spine "neutral" or maintaining the intervertebral relationships, they excessively stick their buttocks out as they descend and overextend the spine. The result of this is that on the ascent there is an unraveling of the whole thing. Usually there is some knee slide at the bottom, hips go back, and the back starts to round on the way up.
I suggest that the back be held in a position that there will be no change intervertebral relationships, regardless of back angle, at any point in the squat and focusing on moving the bar straight down and straight up. Finding this position cleans up a ton of issues and allows much better mechanics during the lift. Better mechanics leads to better training. Better training over time will lead to gains.
@Austin does this jive with your experience.
I definitely agree with what you're suggesting "should" be taught re: intervertebral positions. I guess I don't see all that many people in person who come in significantly overextending their lumbar spines (and, if they are, it's immediately corrected before we even put weight on the bar - and as an aside, I hate watching Mike Israetel squat). But I agree that going into the hole with that sort of positioning will generally result in sloppiness on the way up as well.
Hanley wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:03 am
To start, I would simply look forward with chest more forward on your squats.
So “low bar squat with high bar mechanics”?
You still use low bar mechanics when you squat like this. If you look at some of my squats, I pretty much look forward. I still sit into the pocket and keep the weight over my hips.
I had a major gm problem when I first started. It was worse for a while because a SS coach really had my GMing by coaching my to raise my hips up first out of the bottom. Eventually I found out that I really need to not have my back angle changing going in and out of the hole. Keeping a tight upper back and neutral/slightly up gaze (I push my neck back towards the bar to get really tight) helped me. I also ditched my heeled shoes and did more quad work for a while. Now I am not doing additional quad work that often, since I mainly hit the big lifts, but so far I've been ok. If I start to GM again, maybe I would add it in again.
The exercise that really hammered my quads was deadlift stance box squats.
Austin wrote: ↑Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:20 am
I definitely agree with what you're suggesting "should" be taught re: intervertebral positions. I guess I don't see all that many people in person who come in significantly overextending their lumbar spines (and, if they are, it's immediately corrected before we even put weight on the bar - and as an aside, I hate watching Mike Israetel squat). But I agree that going into the hole with that sort of positioning will generally result in sloppiness on the way up as well.
LOL at Mike Israetel's squat. That's exactly it. I think a lot of the people I have seen (in the past...I don't see anyone in my basement anymore) have come from some "bodybuilding" background (when I used to train at a bodybuilding gym) or has had more than a few inadequate Westside cues repeatedly thrown at them (when I used to train at a "Westside" gym). I can still hear them now, "ARCH ARCH ARCH!!! BACK BACK BACK!!!" Maybe works for the multi-ply geared partial movements but definitely screws up a raw squatter. I really have very little experience with rank novices from the general population (only one guy).
mgil wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:57 am
Best way to fix a squat (for me) is to video every set for a while and make it look “efficient”. I have no idea what that means, and it looks different across lifters.
Yeah. I don't even know what I'm seeing when I see it, but when someone hits the right/optimal joint angles it's obvious. It looks...fuck, here I go again...beautiful.
Efficiency is... Everything moving in only the direction it needs to. It's when you throw a punch and there's no pre load, no cocking back, everything just suddenly comes... forwards. In a squat, the bar comes down, then just up. Everything comes up. No squish, no movement to the side, no hips kicking up or knees coming forwards. No bounce. Just, everything coming up all along in time with the bar.
I think a lot of the rest of this thread is shit we've already gone over. Knees shouldn't be properly fixed, but "mostly fixed" i.e. there will be a little bit of movement (1-2") but most of it should be constrained to the top half. "Chest drive" is pushing the bar up is hip extension. "Ass/hip drive" is conversely leg drive or quad drive. You should use both, in whatever degree is required to get an efficient squat.
As far as "Is it a strength or technique issue?", well do you do it with light weights all the time or only with heavy weights? A form issue that only appears with heavy weights indicates to me technique is probably not the issue.
If you asked me what one change would make the biggest difference, it would be fixing the upper back squishing. The first rep is the best, and you'll notice it's the rep where your elbows move the least, the upper back musculature is bunched up the tightest, and pretty much the only rep where you didn't feel the urge to throw your head back on the way up. Anytime you feel like you have to move your head back, it's almost certainly because your upper back has lost tightness and your instincts are telling you to to crank your head back to prevent the bar from rolling up your neck.
I would cue "Thoracic extension" or "Chest up" (although not all people conflate chest up with thoracic extension so ymmv on that one) the entire time. When setting up, walking out, way down, way up and when standing around between reps. If you lose upper back tightness at any point, it's hard to get it back, so it needs to be in your mind the entire time.
quark wrote: ↑Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:05 am
@OverheadDeadlifts perhaps more work on keeping triceps tight against my lats and maybe "proud chest" as cues to keep everything tight?
On a later set, I did feel the bar roll a touch.
I like proud chest as long as proud chest means thoracic extension and not just pulling the shoulders back. I'm not as big a of "triceps tight against lats" because it's possible to be very good at keeping your arms in tight whilst still being in thoracic flexion. If you can throw it in there, great, but I'd say it's not as important a cue at this point.
quark wrote: ↑Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:35 am
@OverheadDeadlifts my natural inclination for proud chest is shoulders back and together, which results in thoracic extension.
Shoulders back and together can be done with thoracic flexion. Does your chest tilt upwards when you do that? That's what you're looking for.
quark wrote: ↑Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:35 am
@OverheadDeadlifts my natural inclination for proud chest is shoulders back and together, which results in thoracic extension.
Shoulders back and together can be done with thoracic flexion. Does your chest tilt upwards when you do that? That's what you're looking for.
Yes, my chest tilts upward when I do that. It seems most natural to me to do all three simultaneously. Shoulders back and together, chest up all seem part of a single action.
Murelli wrote: ↑Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:30 am
Lock yourself up on top, break at the knees and hips at the same time. (Two cues)
Tightness and knees out from the beginning of the descent. (Two cues)
Knees forward and sit down (not back). (Two cues)
Are my knees not going out early enough? Are they going far enough out? Are they not going far enough forward?
Your knees are not tracking forward enough, and that may be a consequence of you starting the lift with the hip already flexed slightly and breaking at the hip first. That's common when someone tries to force Rippetoan mechanics (bend over, look down, hip drahve). Hip drive, bending over are consequences and you are already looking down enough.
Knees out is a great cue because it usually forces your knees to track to the right place and your hips to break with your knees. It also makes the hip bounce more natural, so you won't try to force it with excessive hip flexion that results in knee slip at the bottom (your case).
Tightness is also a great cue because it enforces back extension (upper, middle, lower), ab contraction (important to avoid back hyperextension), ultimately resulting in hip bounce and correct back angle.
Murelli wrote: ↑Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:30 am
Lock yourself up on top, break at the knees and hips at the same time. (Two cues)
Tightness and knees out from the beginning of the descent. (Two cues)
Knees forward and sit down (not back). (Two cues)
Are my knees not going out early enough? Are they going far enough out? Are they not going far enough forward?
Your knees are not tracking forward enough, and that may be a consequence of you starting the lift with the hip already flexed slightly and breaking at the hip first. That's common when someone tries to force Rippetoan mechanics (bend over, look down, hip drahve). Hip drive, bending over are consequences and you are already looking down enough.
Knees out is a great cue because it usually forces your knees to track to the right place and your hips to break with your knees. It also makes the hip bounce more natural, so you won't try to force it with excessive hip flexion that results in knee slip at the bottom (your case).
Tightness is also a great cue because it enforces back extension (upper, middle, lower), ab contraction (important to avoid back hyperextension), ultimately resulting in hip bounce and correct back angle.
Do you have hip flexor pain?
My ability to focus on multiple things seems to vanish once I start a lift. Knees out and stay tight (especially thoracic extension) seem to be the leading suggestions and are probably the limit of my attention span.
No hip flexor pain. I often get a bit sore in my lower back, just above my butt (either shortly after lifting or when getting out of bed the next the morning), but it's not a major issue. No other regular pain or soreness from any lifts.
I see that the latest BBM newsletter takes a stand against thoracic flexion and includes:
"Pull your shoulder blades together and open your chest toward the wall in front of you. Think PROUD CHEST or showing off your chest to the wall in front of you (since no person should be standing there to distract you, it’s just a show for the wall...) You should feel that stretch across your chest as you grip the bar and get set-up while still in the rack. "
I also see that Tom Campitelli is officially part of their team.
ETA: Leah notes "And Tom is still a SS coach however he does do some coaching with us".
OverheadDeadlifts wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:31 amThe cue that finally killed it stone dead was 'hips forward', especially out of the hole.
Thanks for this! I've also struggled with chest fall for a while, and this cue really helped. For me, my weight tends to shift back out of the hole, not forward, and this hips forward cue seemed to help counteract that.
