GM squats, balance and quad strength

[Murelli]

Is that an Eureka aha or a got ya aha?

[quark]

Some of both, plus I'm starting to realize that SSOC might exemplify the old "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

[quark]

BTW, regarding knees going back, in this video, knees go back a bit as soon as he starts to ascend. Is that a problem? If not, what is the knees back problem?

[Shane]

BTW, regarding knees going back, in this video, knees go back a bit as soon as he starts to ascend. Is that a problem? If not, what is the knees back problem?

I increasingly don't give a shit about what squats look like. If it's not causing injury and more weight is involved, IDGAF. Ol' CWS here, who I think @Hanley holds up as a poster boy of pretty squat, has after an initial bit of forward knee travel to start proceedings, a pause in knee travel, then for some reps a near majority of forward knee travel in the second half of the descent. There's also some forward travel of the bar path as he descends, and some quick knees back right out of the bottom position (accomplished with only a little torso incline in what is a very upright squat - long torso bonus?). And he's repping on 645. So fuckit.

[Austin]

BTW, regarding knees going back, in this video, knees go back a bit as soon as he starts to ascend. Is that a problem? If not, what is the knees back problem?

Yes, that was not my best set from a technical standpoint. The bar whip was really getting me, and it was also rather heavy

[KyleSchuant]

Some of both, plus I'm starting to realize that SSOC might exemplify the old "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

Except it's a rubber mallet, not even a metal claw-hammer.

[KyleSchuant]

I think front squats are the way to go even more than high bar squats. You learn the exact movement pattern that is a correction. It spans something that high bar back squats just don't. You have to maintain an upright torso or the bar will dump.

Yes. Or paused squats. It's rare that people can goodmorning a decently heavy paused squat.

[ChasingCurls69]

The issue with knees coming back out of the bottom is the change in back angle and the fact that the knees have extended without moving the bar up, so now the knee extensors can't contribute as much. I had spent a while being told to shove my knees further forward by SSCs and people who hated SS to get a more upright squat without the knees coming back out of the bottom, but it ended up being the upper back tightness thing.

I like the chest out cue from SSOC people for that. Also paused squats and pin squats made me fix it pretty fast and then vastly improved my competitiom squat day.

[quark]

BTW, regarding knees going back, in this video, knees go back a bit as soon as he starts to ascend. Is that a problem? If not, what is the knees back problem?

I increasingly don't give a shit about what squats look like. If it's not causing injury and more weight is involved, IDGAF. Ol' CWS here, who I think @Hanley holds up as a poster boy of pretty squat, has after an initial bit of forward knee travel to start proceedings, a pause in knee travel, then for some reps a near majority of forward knee travel in the second half of the descent. There's also some forward travel of the bar path as he descends, and some quick knees back right out of the bottom position (accomplished with only a little torso incline in what is a very upright squat - long torso bonus?). And he's repping on 645. So fuckit.

<video>

Mike T has been saying that so long as a movement would pass in competition and is not likely to cause injury, it's good enough to keep adding weight and getting stronger. He also says you should nonetheless work on improving form.

[quark]

BTW, regarding knees going back, in this video, knees go back a bit as soon as he starts to ascend. Is that a problem? If not, what is the knees back problem?

<video>

Yes, that was not my best set from a technical standpoint. The bar whip was really getting me, and it was also rather heavy

I can only dream of having such terrible form

I believe your knees go back a bit as you start to ascend in your recent IG squat videos, so I was questioning whether that, in itself, is a problem or I'm not seeing correctly or it depends on the individual or it's something else. https://www.instagram.com/austin_barbellmedicine/

[quark]

The issue with knees coming back out of the bottom is the change in back angle and the fact that the knees have extended without moving the bar up, so now the knee extensors can't contribute as much. I had spent a while being told to shove my knees further forward by SSCs and people who hated SS to get a more upright squat without the knees coming back out of the bottom, but it ended up being the upper back tightness thing.

I like the chest out cue from SSOC people for that. Also paused squats and pin squats made me fix it pretty fast and then vastly improved my competitiom squat day.

That sounds like the problem is the change in the back angle, without which knee extension would move the bar up, rather than knees back per se.

It's become a theme of this thread that back tightness, especially upper back tightness, is key and is not emphasized enough by many coaches.

[OCG]

It goes for any lift, if the bar isn't stable and moving in a consistent path, then it'll throw everything out of whack. How can you have a consistent bar path if the bar is randomly moving around?

[quark]

It goes for any lift, if the bar isn't stable and moving in a consistent path, then it'll throw everything out of whack. How can you have a consistent bar path if the bar is randomly moving around?

Yes. A frequent mantra is "the bar should move in a straight vertical line over midfoot". How do we make that happen? Can we improve efficiency? As an example of a bar path issue, many people have a hard time not tipping forward, such as in viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1301

Another form issue, I often hear that you shouldn't let your knees move back at the start of the squat ascent. However, it appears some excellent lifters, such as Austin and CWS, often do that. I wonder if the advice is bad or only bad for some or an element of good form that's breached on heavy lifts or what.

[OCG]

It's stated, in very absolute tones that "the knees do no move in the bottom half of the squat". Reality is a little different and goes a little more like "the majority of knee movement is done in the top half of the squat". A shift of an inch or two is perfectly acceptable and very common. It's also part and parcel of keeping the back angle fixed and getting "hip drive" (the technique, not the cue). It's a major part of the "Rip style" squat, and probably the best part and worth keeping.

So if we're not keeping the back angle fixed in and out of the hole then yes, we can move the knees. But that's a different style of squatting, and one I've not seen many people pull of low bar correctly (hell even high bar...). It's like a dynamic start to the deadlift. Does it work for some people? Yeah sure, fucking absolutely. But is it the best way for the average lifter to do it? Probably not. I've seen very few people manage constantly shifting knees and back angles with a low bar/powerlifting style squat. Or at least, manage to make it look pretty and keep the bar path straight. Indeed, most people, through trail and error tend not to shift their back angle out of the hole, too much.