Bench alternatives, weighted pushup?

[GeoffBUK]

For bench presses, there are only the following "alternatives" or "additional exercises":
Bench press, bench press, bench press, ...

You dont like this, ... You are NOT a bencher.
(Walter Kurda, 200 + kg-competition-bencher since 1980)

Wise words from an extraordinarily strong bench presser, if only I had a bench and a quarter of your bench pressing Tallent!

[walterkurda]

For bench presses, there are only the following "alternatives" or "additional exercises":
Bench press, bench press, bench press, ...

You dont like this, ... You are NOT a bencher.
(Walter Kurda, 200 + kg-competition-bencher since 1980)

Wise words from an extraordinarily strong bench presser, if only I had a bench and a quarter of your bench pressing Tallent!

Hello, I made this remark because I see the many sad cases in the studio every day. People who supposedly value a significant increase in the bench press waste their time with nonsensical exercises and exercise combinations. It's very, very sad. But they don't want it any other way.

[KarlM]

For bench presses, there are only the following "alternatives" or "additional exercises":
Bench press, bench press, bench press, ...

You dont like this, ... You are NOT a bencher.
(Walter Kurda, 200 + kg-competition-bencher since 1980)

Wise words from an extraordinarily strong bench presser, if only I had a bench and a quarter of your bench pressing Tallent!

Hello, I made this remark because I see the many sad cases in the studio every day. People who supposedly value a significant increase in the bench press waste their time with nonsensical exercises and exercise combinations. It's very, very sad. But they don't want it any other way.

On the other hand, there are a lot of successful powerlifters that utilize bench variations and additional movements to push their bench numbers up. What is your take on that? It seems to me there are a lot of ways to skin this cat, and for a lot of people, if they just bench they wind up with overuse injuries.

[walterkurda]

For bench presses, there are only the following "alternatives" or "additional exercises":
Bench press, bench press, bench press, ...

You dont like this, ... You are NOT a bencher.
(Walter Kurda, 200 + kg-competition-bencher since 1980)

Wise words from an extraordinarily strong bench presser, if only I had a bench and a quarter of your bench pressing Tallent!

Hello, I made this remark because I see the many sad cases in the studio every day. People who supposedly value a significant increase in the bench press waste their time with nonsensical exercises and exercise combinations. It's very, very sad. But they don't want it any other way.

On the other hand, there are a lot of successful powerlifters that utilize bench variations and additional movements to push their bench numbers up. What is your take on that? It seems to me there are a lot of ways to skin this cat, and for a lot of people, if they just bench they wind up with overuse injuries.

"spiteful" and exaggerated I say: most "good" powerlifters, and even bench pressers, have quite little idea about bench press. Most of them have never really trained consistently, because they lack the "bite" and the sporting background (maybe also the necessary intelligence). It may sound cynical, but it's my experience from 55 years of competitive sports. First as a shot putter and discus thrower, and later as a bench presser. The problem with most of them is probably also that they train themselves, and learn a lot of nonsense from others who also have no idea. The weightlifters do it more correctly. They practically only train the three disciplines, whereby squats, wide pull, swing press, etc. are just parts of the actual disciplines. But none of this can really be conveyed by text. But I wish you good luck with your training.

[Hardartery]

For bench presses, there are only the following "alternatives" or "additional exercises":
Bench press, bench press, bench press, ...

You dont like this, ... You are NOT a bencher.
(Walter Kurda, 200 + kg-competition-bencher since 1980)

Wise words from an extraordinarily strong bench presser, if only I had a bench and a quarter of your bench pressing Tallent!

Hello, I made this remark because I see the many sad cases in the studio every day. People who supposedly value a significant increase in the bench press waste their time with nonsensical exercises and exercise combinations. It's very, very sad. But they don't want it any other way.

On the other hand, there are a lot of successful powerlifters that utilize bench variations and additional movements to push their bench numbers up. What is your take on that? It seems to me there are a lot of ways to skin this cat, and for a lot of people, if they just bench they wind up with overuse injuries.

"spiteful" and exaggerated I say: most "good" powerlifters, and even bench pressers, have quite little idea about bench press. Most of them have never really trained consistently, because they lack the "bite" and the sporting background (maybe also the necessary intelligence). It may sound cynical, but it's my experience from 55 years of competitive sports. First as a shot putter and discus thrower, and later as a bench presser. The problem with most of them is probably also that they train themselves, and learn a lot of nonsense from others who also have no idea. The weightlifters do it more correctly. They practically only train the three disciplines, whereby squats, wide pull, swing press, etc. are just parts of the actual disciplines. But none of this can really be conveyed by text. But I wish you good luck with your training.

I love the fact that someone else is being the curmudgeon here, just to say up front.

The point, while I tend to agree with @walterkurda that the best thing tends to be derivates of what the lift is, I don't think it is without exception. I will give an example. If your Bench Press is weak off of the chest, maybe DB Flyes to build strength and size in the pectorals and anterior deltoids would serve very well to offer improvement even though it is not a Bench Press derivative. This is because it offers overload in the actual plane of the lift for these muscles with lower weight/systemic fatigue. Additionally, I don't think it can be disputed that back development is a great asset to the Bench Press. Specifically development of the lats, which can be accomplished by quite a few exercises that are not Bench Press but serve to overload the targeted muscles in an effective way.

As a disclaimer here, I don't believe for a millisecond that pushups are useful for improving the BP once your BP is more than your bodyweight, and I think loaded pushups are a second rate exercise if the goal is improving BP. Why would you eat ground beef if steak exists for the same price? I get that it is a current fad, but I very much agree with Señor Kurda with regards to pushups for improving BP.

[KarlM]

@walterkurda, ok, you're on. I'll bench every other day for the next few months. Let's see if that finally gets me my 300 lb paused bench press.

[Hanley]

walterkurda, ok, you're on. I'll bench every other day for the next few months. Let's see if that finally gets me my 300 lb paused bench press.

I've tracked/tried to reverse engineer a bunch of Walter's training/programming. He's done some really neat things to manage fatigue. I'd recommend you take a look at his logs for some ideas on how to implement.

If you can mange weekly fatigue with the high frequency, I'm VERY confident you will hit 300 pounds.

[KarlM]

walterkurda, ok, you're on. I'll bench every other day for the next few months. Let's see if that finally gets me my 300 lb paused bench press.

I've tracked/tried to reverse engineer a bunch of Walter's training/programming. He's done some really neat things to manage fatigue. I'd recommend you take a look at his logs for some ideas on how to implement.

If you can mange weekly fatigue with the high frequency, I'm VERY confident you will hit 300 pounds.

Thanks for weighing in Hanley. For me fatigue management for bench is pretty much making sure the shoulders don't get cranky. I suspect it will be more than that if/when I'm regularly putting up heavier reps (maybe roughly >300 lbs?). I'm to the point now that I can always put up 275 (I can probably always/almost always double that weight opn any given day), but that weight doesn't really result in much fatigue (that I notice at least). This is in contrast to squat and deads. If I'm regularly taking singles at similar %'s to my bench, I notice the fatigue set in. Maybe that's due to the movement pattern overlap between squat and deads? Maybe it's just that those loads are objectively larger?

I do regularly look at walter's log.

[cole]

my shoulders get cranky as fuck if i bench too much and i never could figure out if it was volume or intensity driven. as of late, meaning the last ~4 months, i have been on TM with bench and press alternating so that i complete a mini-cycle of volume-recovery-intensity sessions in a 14 day period. thats 3 sessions of bench, and 3 sessions of press, so 6 "pressing movement sessions" in a 14 day period. and i worked up to PR weights on volume and intensity days on both press and bench with no problems, load never felt heavier even though it was increasing week to week and my shoulders were awesome. recently i began a 4 week "taper" where ive now prioritized bench over press for my upcoming meet. and sure enough, within a month of benching now 4x (2 volume and 2 intensity) per 14 day period instead of 3 (removed recovery day) and my delts, especially my right delt, is inflamed as shit. my point is i think its the total dose over a given time that causes irritation and crankiness of joints and tendons rather than just one variable such as volume or intensity or frequency. there are a lot of dials to turn to get it right and to quote hanley "i dont know, this shit is voodoo"

[Hanley]

but that weight doesn't really result in much fatigue

I think you're absolutely right...bench is really limited by shoulder/elbow crankiness and pain...not so much muscle fatigue (I feel like my pecs could take tremendous abuse).

I guess I was throwing "cranky tendons" under the category of "fatigue"...but that's a different enough stress from the general fatigue of squats and deads to deserve its own mitigation strategy.

[Philbert]

my shoulders get cranky as fuck if i bench too much and i never could figure out if it was volume or intensity driven. as of late, meaning the last ~4 months, i have been on TM with bench and press alternating so that i complete a mini-cycle of volume-recovery-intensity sessions in a 14 day period. thats 3 sessions of bench, and 3 sessions of press, so 6 "pressing movement sessions" in a 14 day period. and i worked up to PR weights on volume and intensity days on both press and bench with no problems, load never felt heavier even though it was increasing week to week and my shoulders were awesome. recently i began a 4 week "taper" where ive now prioritized bench over press for my upcoming meet. and sure enough, within a month of benching now 4x (2 volume and 2 intensity) per 14 day period instead of 3 (removed recovery day) and my delts, especially my right delt, is inflamed as shit. my point is i think its the total dose over a given time that causes irritation and crankiness of joints and tendons rather than just one variable such as volume or intensity or frequency. there are a lot of dials to turn to get it right and to quote hanley "i dont know, this shit is voodoo"

So maybe, for some lifters, in some situations, alternatives and variations are necessary?

[cole]

@Philbert
depends on what you mean by necessary. a person could just lift S/B/D/OHP with no variations their entire life and still reap the benefits of strength training that carry over to their everyday living. and if done with correct programming and appropriate dose/stress, limit injury and overuse.

however, i think the longer a person does this, the more likely they are to benefit from some variety, both from a phsyiological and psychological standpoint.

[Hardartery]

my shoulders get cranky as fuck if i bench too much and i never could figure out if it was volume or intensity driven. as of late, meaning the last ~4 months, i have been on TM with bench and press alternating so that i complete a mini-cycle of volume-recovery-intensity sessions in a 14 day period. thats 3 sessions of bench, and 3 sessions of press, so 6 "pressing movement sessions" in a 14 day period. and i worked up to PR weights on volume and intensity days on both press and bench with no problems, load never felt heavier even though it was increasing week to week and my shoulders were awesome. recently i began a 4 week "taper" where ive now prioritized bench over press for my upcoming meet. and sure enough, within a month of benching now 4x (2 volume and 2 intensity) per 14 day period instead of 3 (removed recovery day) and my delts, especially my right delt, is inflamed as shit. my point is i think its the total dose over a given time that causes irritation and crankiness of joints and tendons rather than just one variable such as volume or intensity or frequency. there are a lot of dials to turn to get it right and to quote hanley "i dont know, this shit is voodoo"

So maybe, for some lifters, in some situations, alternatives and variations are necessary?

I think everyone, Walter Kurda included, would agree that variations are required. His statements above don't preclude that. I think the point is more that there are an awful lot of things to do in your programming without resorting to less effective accessories if you have access to equipment. There is an almost infinite variation of Bench Press itself. Grip spacing, grip itself, pacing, rep ranges, percentages/RPE, chain, bands, slingshot, bar type, pauses, angle of bench, other stuff I can't think of. No pushup can give you the stimulus of a bar with weight on it, no matter how fat you can get.

All that aside, what spacing do you guys find more effective for Close Grip work? @walterkurda please chime in. I am currently pointer finger covering the edge of the knurl and the edge of the smooth - splitting the finger with that mark. This means some serious wrist deflection for me and I am kind of hitting my torso with the thumb side of my hands making it a little difficult to touch on some reps. I cannot decide if a little wider would be better, it would definitely be easier on my wrists. Any thumbnail calculations on width versus effect? I notice @Skid is using a wider grip than me for his CG work but I can't tell exactly what width he is using.

[Skid]

I notice @Skid is using a wider grip than me for his CG work but I can't tell exactly what width he is using.

I vary my grip a bit for close grip. I go from index finger just on the knurling (from the smooth) to 1 finger in, to 2 fingers in. For my meet prep the last few sessions I have been 2 fingers or roughly an inch in from the smooth.That's right in the middle of extreme close grip to my competition grip which is pinky just outside the rings. I actually vary my comp grip a little too. Sometimes I think I'm stronger closer in, and sometimes stronger wider. Depends on the day; I'm weird that way.

[cole]

you think varying grip will help avoid shoulder issues like tendonitis and bursitis ??? is narrow better for the shoulder girlde or is wider?

[walterkurda]

my shoulders get cranky as fuck if i bench too much and i never could figure out if it was volume or intensity driven. as of late, meaning the last ~4 months, i have been on TM with bench and press alternating so that i complete a mini-cycle of volume-recovery-intensity sessions in a 14 day period. thats 3 sessions of bench, and 3 sessions of press, so 6 "pressing movement sessions" in a 14 day period. and i worked up to PR weights on volume and intensity days on both press and bench with no problems, load never felt heavier even though it was increasing week to week and my shoulders were awesome. recently i began a 4 week "taper" where ive now prioritized bench over press for my upcoming meet. and sure enough, within a month of benching now 4x (2 volume and 2 intensity) per 14 day period instead of 3 (removed recovery day) and my delts, especially my right delt, is inflamed as shit. my point is i think its the total dose over a given time that causes irritation and crankiness of joints and tendons rather than just one variable such as volume or intensity or frequency. there are a lot of dials to turn to get it right and to quote hanley "i dont know, this shit is voodoo"

So maybe, for some lifters, in some situations, alternatives and variations are necessary?

I think everyone, Walter Kurda included, would agree that variations are required. His statements above don't preclude that. I think the point is more that there are an awful lot of things to do in your programming without resorting to less effective accessories if you have access to equipment. There is an almost infinite variation of Bench Press itself. Grip spacing, grip itself, pacing, rep ranges, percentages/RPE, chain, bands, slingshot, bar type, pauses, angle of bench, other stuff I can't think of. No pushup can give you the stimulus of a bar with weight on it, no matter how fat you can get.

All that aside, what spacing do you guys find more effective for Close Grip work? @walterkurda please chime in. I am currently pointer finger covering the edge of the knurl and the edge of the smooth - splitting the finger with that mark. This means some serious wrist deflection for me and I am kind of hitting my torso with the thumb side of my hands making it a little difficult to touch on some reps. I cannot decide if a little wider would be better, it would definitely be easier on my wrists. Any thumbnail calculations on width versus effect? I notice @Skid is using a wider grip than me for his CG work but I can't tell exactly what width he is using.

Unfortunately, I don't have time again - probably for the 1000th time - to lecture on the grip range on the bench press. However, it should be clear to everyone that a wide grip puts much more strain on the shoulder, the joint with the most degrees of freedom, than a narrow grip. I also hope that it is clear to everyone here what vectorial force decomposition is. Although biomechanics can be explained in a first approximation with classical physics, but:... if the force is not applied exactly opposite to gravity, but with an angle to the outside (this is the case with a very wide handle), more force must be applied. Those who have pronounced auxiliary muscles can compensate for this disadvantage. But it remains the case ... a wide grip is not good for the shoulder joints because the shoulders lose a lot of stability. Regular variations of the grip width can only be discouraged. 
A competitive athlete in particular lives from the fact that his - hopefully optimized technique - remains absolutely unchanged and is trained.
Perhaps VERY important: A change from a wide handle to a narrow grip is absolutely harmless. Conversely, it can lead to disaster (serious injuries to the shoulder joints, muscles, tendons).
Sorry, I have no more time now.

[walterkurda]

you think varying grip will help avoid shoulder issues like tendonitis and bursitis ??? is narrow better for the shoulder girlde or is wider?

see my comment, and good luck for Your training

[walterkurda]

I notice @Skid is using a wider grip than me for his CG work but I can't tell exactly what width he is using.

I vary my grip a bit for close grip. I go from index finger just on the knurling (from the smooth) to 1 finger in, to 2 fingers in. For my meet prep the last few sessions I have been 2 fingers or roughly an inch in from the smooth.That's right in the middle of extreme close grip to my competition grip which is pinky just outside the rings. I actually vary my comp grip a little too. Sometimes I think I'm stronger closer in, and sometimes stronger wider. Depends on the day; I'm weird that way.

see my comment, and good luck for Your training

[cole]

Ok Walter I'm gonna work on narrowing my grip over time since this is the 2nd episode of knarley shoulder tendinitis I've had in as many years

[Skid]

my shoulders get cranky as fuck if i bench too much and i never could figure out if it was volume or intensity driven. as of late, meaning the last ~4 months, i have been on TM with bench and press alternating so that i complete a mini-cycle of volume-recovery-intensity sessions in a 14 day period. thats 3 sessions of bench, and 3 sessions of press, so 6 "pressing movement sessions" in a 14 day period. and i worked up to PR weights on volume and intensity days on both press and bench with no problems, load never felt heavier even though it was increasing week to week and my shoulders were awesome. recently i began a 4 week "taper" where ive now prioritized bench over press for my upcoming meet. and sure enough, within a month of benching now 4x (2 volume and 2 intensity) per 14 day period instead of 3 (removed recovery day) and my delts, especially my right delt, is inflamed as shit. my point is i think its the total dose over a given time that causes irritation and crankiness of joints and tendons rather than just one variable such as volume or intensity or frequency. there are a lot of dials to turn to get it right and to quote hanley "i dont know, this shit is voodoo"

So maybe, for some lifters, in some situations, alternatives and variations are necessary?

I think everyone, Walter Kurda included, would agree that variations are required. His statements above don't preclude that. I think the point is more that there are an awful lot of things to do in your programming without resorting to less effective accessories if you have access to equipment. There is an almost infinite variation of Bench Press itself. Grip spacing, grip itself, pacing, rep ranges, percentages/RPE, chain, bands, slingshot, bar type, pauses, angle of bench, other stuff I can't think of. No pushup can give you the stimulus of a bar with weight on it, no matter how fat you can get.

All that aside, what spacing do you guys find more effective for Close Grip work? @walterkurda please chime in. I am currently pointer finger covering the edge of the knurl and the edge of the smooth - splitting the finger with that mark. This means some serious wrist deflection for me and I am kind of hitting my torso with the thumb side of my hands making it a little difficult to touch on some reps. I cannot decide if a little wider would be better, it would definitely be easier on my wrists. Any thumbnail calculations on width versus effect? I notice @Skid is using a wider grip than me for his CG work but I can't tell exactly what width he is using.

Unfortunately, I don't have time again - probably for the 1000th time - to lecture on the grip range on the bench press. However, it should be clear to everyone that a wide grip puts much more strain on the shoulder, the joint with the most degrees of freedom, than a narrow grip. I also hope that it is clear to everyone here what vectorial force decomposition is. Although biomechanics can be explained in a first approximation with classical physics, but:... if the force is not applied exactly opposite to gravity, but with an angle to the outside (this is the case with a very wide handle), more force must be applied. Those who have pronounced auxiliary muscles can compensate for this disadvantage. But it remains the case ... a wide grip is not good for the shoulder joints because the shoulders lose a lot of stability. Regular variations of the grip width can only be discouraged. 
A competitive athlete in particular lives from the fact that his - hopefully optimized technique - remains absolutely unchanged and is trained.
Perhaps VERY important: A change from a wide handle to a narrow grip is absolutely harmless. Conversely, it can lead to disaster (serious injuries to the shoulder joints, muscles, tendons).
Sorry, I have no more time now.

Like everything there are nuances to this. Training solely narrow grip and then going to a wide grip with a 1rep max may cause issues but no one is recommending that. Using submaximal weights and varying your grip won't cause your shoulders/pec's/tendons to explode. In fact using the same bench grip without changing will likely cause shoulder issues over time. I know it has with me.