Transpeople in athletics

[mgil]

I felt compelled to share as it's local and this is now 3 records broken by this individual in the span of less than two months...

https://13wham.com/news/local/transgend ... -ncaa-lgbt

Local regular media with a rational take on this now. Interesting

[aurelius]

World aquatics (international body that controls swimming) enacted this rule:

The policy dictates male-to-female transgender athletes would only be eligible to compete in the women’s categories if they transition before the age of 12 or before they reach stage 2 of the puberty Tanner Stages.

Thoughts?

[Philbert]

World aquatics (international body that controls swimming) enacted this rule:

The policy dictates male-to-female transgender athletes would only be eligible to compete in the women’s categories if they transition before the age of 12 or before they reach stage 2 of the puberty Tanner Stages.

Thoughts?

At first glance, this appears to be a very reasonable accommodation for intersex individuals who would otherwise be ineligible. It seems to address the primary concern of allowing individuals who underwent testosterone driven physical development to compete against those who did not. I don't know enough about the medicine to know if early initiation of puberty blockers would allow older transitioners to participate under this rule. Apart from that, it seems unlikely that it will apply to many would be athletes, and I predict that a minority of people who care about this issue will be satisfied with it.

[mbasic]

World aquatics (international body that controls swimming) enacted this rule:

The policy dictates male-to-female transgender athletes would only be eligible to compete in the women’s categories if they transition before the age of 12 or before they reach stage 2 of the puberty Tanner Stages.

Thoughts?

depends on the "extent" of the transition

But I'll take that any day over the current policy of most of these sports orgs ..... which is currently amounts to the cock-haver just saying he is a she

[mbasic]

I felt compelled to share as it's local and this is now 3 records broken by this individual in the span of less than two months...

https://13wham.com/news/local/transgend ... -ncaa-lgbt

oh yay, a track and field case

Well when he was known as camden, in 10th grade his 200m times were in mid 24's. (Indoor track/tight turns)

So for reference his 24.58 result garnered him a 65th place at big Invitational meet .... and New Jersey isn't really known for their Track prowess or whatever.

Today in college, she has some low 24 second PRs, setting records and/or placing high as a girl...at the lower level she competes at: D3 Colleges ...finished 3rd and the D3 Championship meet with 24.12. He almost ran than in 10th grade.
Elite college D1 women are solid 23 second, mid 22's. World class is low 22.

I have to look in a couple of different places to see her results....but it seem she was always capable of mid 24 seconds in the 200 since her transition.

IOW: Its not working. We see this time and time again where an average to below average male athlete, transitions to a female, but their athletic results stay about the same, but their placement against their new cis-female peers goes way up.

Same people in government who won't address this issue^ ...or even touch it with a 10 foot pole .... are also making widespread decisions about a limited-tested experimental vaccine rollout.

[mouse]

The policy dictates male-to-female transgender athletes would only be eligible to compete in the women’s categories if they transition before the age of 12 or before they reach stage 2 of the puberty Tanner Stages.

I gotta be honest what I really gleen from these 'rules' is that we really shouldn't be pumping our kids full of test/estrogen and/or chopping off body parts...

And the people or parents who are really bug me...

[mgil]

World aquatics (international body that controls swimming) enacted this rule:

The policy dictates male-to-female transgender athletes would only be eligible to compete in the women’s categories if they transition before the age of 12 or before they reach stage 2 of the puberty Tanner Stages.

Thoughts?

Well, for those weird parents, the strategy is now clear.

[aurelius]

we really shouldn't be pumping our kids full of test/estrogen and/or chopping off body parts...

Based on a recent study commissioned by the NHS in the UK, the medical basis for medical intervention is incomplete. Dr. Hilary Cass said there is “no good evidence on the long-term outcomes of interventions to manage gender-related distress,”

https://apnews.com/article/uk-transgend ... 15f9b2e6ed

[cgeorg]

we really shouldn't be pumping our kids full of test/estrogen and/or chopping off body parts...

Based on a recent study commissioned by the NHS in the UK, the medical basis for medical intervention is incomplete. Dr. Hilary Cass said there is “no good evidence on the long-term outcomes of interventions to manage gender-related distress,”

https://apnews.com/article/uk-transgend ... 15f9b2e6ed

They never link the actual report. https://cass.independent-review.uk/home ... al-report/

The Science Vs. podcast just dug into this one a bit https://gimletmedia.com/shows/science-v ... getting-it

Listened through on the website to refresh myself, holy fuck is 1x the worst. I can't skip around easily but where they address this, starting around 16:00, they say the Cass report looked at a study trans kids who got puberty blockers and did not find an improvement in mental health, but it wasn't compared to trans kids who didn't get them, and their supposition is that yeah duh, avoiding the wrong puberty wouldn't make you feel good, it would just keep you from feeling bad. Diving into the report myself, it's honestly written pretty poorly imo, and their main beef seems to be that most studies are low quality and the higher quality ones only show marginally positive effects.

As mentioned in the podcast, this is a hard one to properly study. Who's going to sign up for a randomized trial where they may or may not get puberty blockers? And, it's not going to be very blind when the pubes start coming in.

[mikeylikey]

World aquatics (international body that controls swimming) enacted this rule:

The policy dictates male-to-female transgender athletes would only be eligible to compete in the women’s categories if they transition before the age of 12 or before they reach stage 2 of the puberty Tanner Stages.

Thoughts?

Something like this seems like it would be effective If the goal is to keep Women's sports organically competitive by limiting participation to people who are female or who have a body that basically developed like a female.

But, is the purity of women's sports the top priority of society? Because a possible consequence of widespread adoption of policies like this is that we are essentially telling children (and.their.parents) that if you have any inkling you might want to transition, you better do it before the age of 12 or you can kiss a career in sports goodbye.

10 year old children tend to have unrealistic expectations of, and place an outsized importance on, the prospect of a career in sports. Would these policies not have the effect of encouraging earlier than appropriate transitions for children who maybe ought to be waiting awhile to make that irreversible decision?

[DanCR]

But, is the purity of women's sports the top priority of society?

Certainly not the top priority.

Because a possible consequence of widespread adoption of policies like this is that we are essentially telling children (and.their.parents) that if you have any inkling you might want to transition, you better do it before the age of 12 or you can kiss a career in sports goodbye.

10 year old children tend to have unrealistic expectations of, and place an outsized importance on, the prospect of a career in sports. Would these policies not have the effect of encouraging earlier than appropriate transitions for children who maybe ought to be waiting awhile to make that irreversible decision?

But in my opinion, far more of one than this, which concerns a very, very small segment of the population. In my view, fair competition for all trumps easing a particular decision for the extraordinarily few.

[mikeylikey]

But, is the purity of women's sports the top priority of society?

Certainly not the top priority.

Because a possible consequence of widespread adoption of policies like this is that we are essentially telling children (and.their.parents) that if you have any inkling you might want to transition, you better do it before the age of 12 or you can kiss a career in sports goodbye.

10 year old children tend to have unrealistic expectations of, and place an outsized importance on, the prospect of a career in sports. Would these policies not have the effect of encouraging earlier than appropriate transitions for children who maybe ought to be waiting awhile to make that irreversible decision?

But in my opinion, far more of one than this, which concerns a very, very small segment of the population. In my view, fair competition for all trumps easing a particular decision for the extraordinarily few.

If it's a small segment of the population then wouldn't the effect on fair competition be commensurately insignificant?

[DanCR]

But, is the purity of women's sports the top priority of society?

Certainly not the top priority.

Because a possible consequence of widespread adoption of policies like this is that we are essentially telling children (and.their.parents) that if you have any inkling you might want to transition, you better do it before the age of 12 or you can kiss a career in sports goodbye.

10 year old children tend to have unrealistic expectations of, and place an outsized importance on, the prospect of a career in sports. Would these policies not have the effect of encouraging earlier than appropriate transitions for children who maybe ought to be waiting awhile to make that irreversible decision?

But in my opinion, far more of one than this, which concerns a very, very small segment of the population. In my view, fair competition for all trumps easing a particular decision for the extraordinarily few.

If it's a small segment of the population then wouldn't the effect on fair competition be commensurately insignificant?

Perhaps rather than “fair competition for all,” I should have said “fair competition for all who must compete against these folks,” which of course is exponentially less, as you point out, but still in my view not comparable.

[dw]

But, is the purity of women's sports the top priority of society?

Certainly not the top priority.

Because a possible consequence of widespread adoption of policies like this is that we are essentially telling children (and.their.parents) that if you have any inkling you might want to transition, you better do it before the age of 12 or you can kiss a career in sports goodbye.

10 year old children tend to have unrealistic expectations of, and place an outsized importance on, the prospect of a career in sports. Would these policies not have the effect of encouraging earlier than appropriate transitions for children who maybe ought to be waiting awhile to make that irreversible decision?

But in my opinion, far more of one than this, which concerns a very, very small segment of the population. In my view, fair competition for all trumps easing a particular decision for the extraordinarily few.

If it's a small segment of the population then wouldn't the effect on fair competition be commensurately insignificant?

I would say no on several grounds:

1. In a sport like swimming the entire field is, I gather, ranked with respect to their best times, not just the people in a particular competition. Your placement affects everyone below you.

2. Having an artificial boost is more important the higher in rank you go, and the unfairness at higher levels seems to matter more than at lower levels (to for example enthusiasts of the sport, or in terms of endorsements and scholarships, or the public reputation of the sport).

3. Regardless the observation that there are not many MTF athletes in the first place cuts both ways... all the less reason to scruple over restricting them.

[mbasic]

World aquatics (international body that controls swimming) enacted this rule:

The policy dictates male-to-female transgender athletes would only be eligible to compete in the women’s categories if they transition before the age of 12 or before they reach stage 2 of the puberty Tanner Stages.

Thoughts?

Something like this seems like it would be effective If the goal is to keep Women's sports organically competitive by limiting participation to people who are female or who have a body that basically developed like a female.

But, is the purity of women's sports the top priority of society? Because a possible consequence of widespread adoption of policies like this is that we are essentially telling children (and.their.parents) that if you have any inkling you might want to transition, you better do it before the age of 12 or you can kiss a career in sports goodbye.

10 year old children tend to have unrealistic expectations of, and place an outsized importance on, the prospect of a career in sports. Would these policies not have the effect of encouraging earlier than appropriate transitions for children who maybe ought to be waiting awhile to make that irreversible decision?

you are so captain-bring-down man

Are you saying this is going to dump fuel on the fire with parents transitioning kids that don't need to be transitioned? Make them pull the trigger even earlier? (or at all really)

[mikeylikey]

you are so captain-bring-down man

Are you saying this is going to dump fuel on the fire with parents transitioning kids that don't need to be transitioned? Make them pull the trigger even earlier? (or at all really)

It could have that effect or it could have no effect but I don’t see it working in the opposite direction. Am I wrong?

[mgil]

you are so captain-bring-down man

Are you saying this is going to dump fuel on the fire with parents transitioning kids that don't need to be transitioned? Make them pull the trigger even earlier? (or at all really)

It could have that effect or it could have no effect but I don’t see it working in the opposite direction. Am I wrong?

Based on what gets promoted out on social media, I’d imagine the amount of parents to consider this strategy to be non-zero.

[aurelius]

My takeaway is the Cass report is flawed. It seems to start with a known outcome and work from there. Its main criticism is there is no sufficient long term evidence to support early intervention. Which can easily be explained as transgenders are a very small population and early medical intervention therapy transition is new and not widespread. So not a lot of data to work from. And the Cass report does not really address the decades of data that demonstrates transgender individuals that successfully transition (as measured by being accepted by society) have suicide rates that match the gen pop. Versus transgenders that do not successfully transition have the highest suicide rates out of any group. Which started the focus on earlier medical transition.


The real problem to overcome, IMO, how does a medical practitioner successfully identify a child that needs to transition? I will posit 100% correct identification is not achievable so what is acceptable? 90%? 80%? How do we balance the benefit with the harm (call back to the COVID vaccine discussion)?

[SSJBartSimpson]

I think transitioning a child makes very little sense. People's brains don't fully develop until they're in their 20s.