Space X

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mikeylikey
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Re: Space X

#181

Post by mikeylikey » Mon Nov 13, 2023 7:37 am

Reuters documented at least 600 previously unreported workplace injuries at Musk’s rocket company: crushed limbs, amputations, electrocutions, head and eye wounds and one death.
1) Is this a lot compared to other similar operations? The article compares the injury rates to other missile manufacturers. Which SpaceX is, but most missile manufacturers don't also build large-scale facilities like assembly buildings and launch towers. If you look at Brownsville, which is where the highest rates of injury occur, you're talking a full blown heavy industry / construction / manufacturing operation.

https://www.bls.gov/iif/nonfatal-injuri ... tional.htm

^Examples of industries with rates of injury comparable to Brownsville include "other metal container manufacturing" "truck trailer manufacturing" and "construction machinery manufacturing".
...The employee, whose name was redacted in the inspection report the agency gave Reuters, required long-term treatment after surgery, including the partial amputation of the worker’s ring finger, according to the report. The agency faulted the company for failing to ensure employees tested whether the crane could lift the load. SpaceX appealed the resulting $43,506 fine and got it knocked down to $8,701 after agreeing to remedy the worker-safety problems identified in the report.
2) This is good example of what we were talking about before in this thread i.e. punishing bad actions as regulatory infractions instead of injurious torts.
“Elon’s concept that SpaceX is on this mission to go to Mars as fast as possible and save humanity permeates every part of the company,” said Tom Moline, a former SpaceX senior avionics engineer who was among a group of employees fired after raising workplace complaints. “The company justifies casting aside anything that could stand in the way of accomplishing that goal, including worker safety.”
3) I can see this being true.

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mikeylikey
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Re: Space X

#182

Post by mikeylikey » Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:10 am

BTW they're getting close to 2nd test flight of the BFR, later this week if all goes to plan.

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Re: Space X

#183

Post by KyleSchuant » Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:44 pm

Is this a lot compared to other similar operations?
As you can see from the article, they've had whole years where they don't report at all. Now, if their injury rates were low, I think we can be sure they'd report that, so they could boast about it. "Developing quickly and safely!" If they're not reporting it's because they've got something to hide.

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Re: Space X

#184

Post by mikeylikey » Tue Nov 14, 2023 8:36 am

KyleSchuant wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:44 pm If they're not reporting it's because they've got something to hide.
This is not necessarily the case.

If we accept the premise* that Musk believes occupying Mars is so essential to the future of humanity that it justifies extraordinary levels of personal danger to his employees, this would seem to wholly contain the lesser premise that Musk believes occupying Mars is important enough to not be bogged down by OSHA reporting that isn't absolutely mandatory; whether or not there were extraordinary levels of injuries happening.

*And I'm not arguing against this premise; it would be consistent with what we know about Elon, and this attitude of speed before safety is not unique in space exploration; see Virgin Galactic and also some guys called NASA.

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Re: Space X

#185

Post by aurelius » Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:14 am

KyleSchuant wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:44 pm If they're not reporting it's because they've got something to hide.
What is interesting for me is once Space X received ANY Federal dollars the reporting requirements would kick in. This is true for ALL Federal grants/subsidies/contracts. For Space X to intentionally circumvent the reporting requirements, jeopardize their Federal contracts/funding, is probably a bridge too far for me. Blowing up rockets is expensive. Musk needs Federal money more than he needs to 'go fast' with circumventing rules and regulations.

*I have 17 years of applying for and managing Federal grants/contracts. The Federal administrators do not fuck around.

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Re: Space X

#186

Post by mikeylikey » Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:52 am

aurelius wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:14 am
KyleSchuant wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:44 pm If they're not reporting it's because they've got something to hide.
What is interesting for me is once Space X received ANY Federal dollars the reporting requirements would kick in. This is true for ALL Federal grants/subsidies/contracts. For Space X to intentionally circumvent the reporting requirements, jeopardize their Federal contracts/funding, is probably a bridge too far for me. Blowing up rockets is expensive. Musk needs Federal money more than he needs to 'go fast' with circumventing rules and regulations.

*I have 17 years of applying for and managing Federal grants/contracts. The Federal administrators do not fuck around.
It is the Brownsville operation which had what the author felt were extraordinary rates of injury. This is the big Starship / Mars rocket, as distinct from the Falcon 9 which has been SpaceX's bread and butter. I believe the Starship project was not federally funded until very recently. I don't know if the requirements you mention would be triggered for the whole company or per project but wanted to point that out.

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aurelius
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Re: Space X

#187

Post by aurelius » Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:59 am

mikeylikey wrote: Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:52 am I don't know if the requirements you mention would be triggered for the whole company or per project but wanted to point that out.
Good point. And depends on type of grant/contract/funding. General funding is rare. The unicorn of funding so to speak. All other funding has requirements but are typically project based. But I deal with public entities like municipalities that use contractors to do most of their work. Which is different than a company like Space X who will perform most of the work. Long way of saying, I dunno.

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mikeylikey
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Re: Space X

#188

Post by mikeylikey » Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:01 am

I think we could all agree Elon needs to get the fuck off twitter and stick to making cool shit. You can't go to Mars if you are cancelled for antisemitism. For such a smart guy he is dumb.

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mbasic
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Re: Space X

#189

Post by mbasic » Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:49 pm

He should probably stop making rockets....they can barely do cars


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mikeylikey
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Re: Space X

#190

Post by mikeylikey » Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:21 am

mbasic wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 12:49 pm He should probably stop making rockets....they can barely do cars
Not sure if serious?

1) SpaceX can blow up 5 or 6 more of these and still not have spent what NASA spent on the launch tower for the first test of its expendable SLS. Said tower incidentally being also expendable in practice since it was only built to accommodate the Block 1 SLS, which will never fly again, requiring a whole NEW tower for future flights. Which are happening when?
Point 1B) Between last launch and this one, SpaceX added a piece to the middle of the rocket. Making it about 9 feet taller. This moves connection points and a host of other things... do you have any conception of what a nightmare it would be to try and make a change like that to a NASA project in the flight-test stage of development?
2) With the exception of SpaceX's other rocket, the booster here did it's job 100% as effectively as every other booster ever launched; it got its payload to the correct staging altitude and velocity. On the second try. It failed during the recovery phase where the goal was to turn around in mid air and re-light most of the engines. This was literally the first attempt ever at a brand new thing.
3) Many of Elon Musk's personal beliefs and social media antics are appalling.

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