SCOTUS Decisions

[CaptainAwesome]

my biggest issue is Student A white males. [/i]

So bold. So controversial.

Sadly pretty normal. A lot of people have given themselves permission to shit all over the lives of middle class white guys.

[omaniphil]

My issue is this was not a legal ruling. This was SCOTUS enacting policy from the bench. Affirmative Action has 50+ years of court rulings and the plain text of the laws that this court simply ignored to enforce their policy preference. This court is a problem.

Plain text of the law? Have you looked at the law?

Title VI Subchapter V, §2000d:

No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.

As a nation we are running on laws enacted 50+ years ago which identified issues of those times. Which 1) probably incorrectly identified and addressed those issues and 2) are no longer issues. Congress needs to get off its ass and pass new laws to address the myriad of issues we face. But Democrats seem to be stuck with a playbook from the Civil Rights movement from the 1960's and Republicans are too chicken shit to actually pass any legislation other than tax cuts for the wealthy. We are fucked.

You're right here. If Congress wanted Affirmative Action to be a thing, they should legislate for it, or at least amend the legislation to allow for it. SCOTUS is not legislating, they're just interpreting what the 60 year old legislation pretty clearly says.

[Hardartery]

my biggest issue is Student A white males. [/i]

So bold. So controversial.

Sadly pretty normal. A lot of people have given themselves permission to shit all over the lives of middle class white guys.

That's a pretty unfair characterization of his statement, his description of "Student A" was actually fairly detailed and involved a lot more than colour and class. Speaking as a middle class white guy, I am not offended by it. I did not encounter a lot of Student B people in office setting though, I found that most people fit the Student A profile if they had a degree.

[aurelius]

Question about the bolded part, do you categorically disagree with the idea of the Supreme court invalidating unconstitutional legislation? And if not, how was AA ever actually constitutional, aside from some penumbra emanating from the intent of the equal protection clause, or other such sophistry?

I disagree with the premise of your statement. We aren't discussing new legislation or policies enacted the last few years. Affirmative Action has been around for 50 years and survived numerous court challenges. 6 Justices have now decided it is unconstitutional under the 13th amendment. The previous courts that ruled on this were conservative majorities.

All that has changed is 6 radical justices who are acting as political operatives. Republicans can't get the support both internally and externally to enact legislation (the proper place this should be addressed) to affect change, so they have packed the courts with radicals.

So bold. So controversial.

Sadly pretty normal. A lot of people have given themselves permission to shit all over the lives of middle class white guys.

I've managed over 30 people in my career. My biggest issues have always been from entitled white males. Which I have not had any of those issues with the women that have worked for me (8 or 9). To be fair, the majority of the people that have worked for me have been white males (engineering). I have a fantastic manager who is a 56 year old white male and my top graduate engineer is a white male. So not ALL...but what is your experience with the people you have managed?

[BostonRugger]

So bold. So controversial.

I've managed over 30 people in my career. My biggest issues have always been from entitled white males. What is your experience?

I have managed more people than that over the past 8 years or so, either directly or indirectly. I honestly didn't notice a particular racial group being over-represented as pains in the ass to me as manager. Perhaps I should've gathered some data and gone all race science about it.

[mikeylikey]

We aren't discussing new legislation or policies enacted the last few years. Affirmative Action has been around for 50 years and survived numerous court challenges. 6 Justices have now decided it is unconstitutional under the 14th (FTFY) amendment. The previous courts that ruled on this were conservative majorities.

"X has been around for Y years and survived Z court challenges" could describe plenty of previous stati quo we would probably agree in hindsight were quite wrong.

[aurelius]

"X has been around for Y years and survived Z court challenges" could describe plenty of previous stati quo we would probably agree in hindsight were quite wrong.

Sure. Again, I'm not looking at outcome as I think Affirmative Action as a policy was ineffective and divisive. And the proper place to change policy in the US system is the legislature. But both Republicans and Democrats benefit politically from creating racial divides so fat chance on that.

I just don't think the courts expansive view of the 13th amendment to nullify Affirmative Action has any real legal rigor other than these 6 conservative justices just didn't like Affirmative Action. These same 6 justices have shown a more restrictive view of the 13th amendment on other issues. But I should probably read the majority opinion and dissent before opining too much on this.

[mikeylikey]

I just don't think the courts expansive view of the 13th amendment to nullify Affirmative Action has any real legal rigor other than these 6 conservative justices just didn't like Affirmative Action. These same 6 justices have shown a more restrictive view of the 13th amendment on other issues. But I should probably read the majority opinion and dissent before opining too much on this.

Well then I have good news for you...

[CaptainAwesome]

That's a pretty unfair characterization of his statement, his description of "Student A" was actually fairly detailed and involved a lot more than colour and class. Speaking as a middle class white guy, I am not offended by it. I did not encounter a lot of Student B people in office setting though, I found that most people fit the Student A profile if they had a degree.

Being "Student A" and having basically been shut out of even lowest-level entry level work in the field I actually studied in college, I'm a little fed up with people who look at a couple surface level criteria and decide they have entirely figured me out as a useless person unworthy of even jobs with a low bar of entry. You know, the ones I'm supposed to be doing to showcase to my "betters" that I'm not "entitled" in the first place. Because I'm middle class white guy who didn't grow up in some kind of broken home, the conclusion is I've been handed everything in my life the moment they meet me. That's what I'm seeing on display here. But hey, maybe they're all right. Maybe I'm a piece of shit because I didn't get perfect grades in everything and become an astronaut.

[Hardartery]

That's a pretty unfair characterization of his statement, his description of "Student A" was actually fairly detailed and involved a lot more than colour and class. Speaking as a middle class white guy, I am not offended by it. I did not encounter a lot of Student B people in office setting though, I found that most people fit the Student A profile if they had a degree.

Being "Student A" and having basically been shut out of even lowest-level entry level work in the field I actually studied in college, I'm a little fed up with people who look at a couple surface level criteria and decide they have entirely figured me out as a useless person unworthy of even jobs with a low bar of entry. You know, the ones I'm supposed to be doing to showcase to my "betters" that I'm not "entitled" in the first place. Because I'm middle class white guy who didn't grow up in some kind of broken home, the conclusion is I've been handed everything in my life the moment they meet me. That's what I'm seeing on display here. But hey, maybe they're all right. Maybe I'm a piece of shit because I didn't get perfect grades in everything and become an astronaut.

I spent most of my working life in the US. I am white. I am middle class (Arguably upper middle class at this point based on money on the bank). I also was a 90 day fiancee, an immigrant on a Green Card (Which isn't green, BTW) with a high school education. I was always categorized automatically as Student A, for better or worse, and generally it was for better to be fair. I worked with guys that epitomized the complaints of @aurelius . The women in the office frequently were more reliable and diligent, as were the guys with no degree. I don't have a lot of sympathy for the guys that would be considered my "Peers". We absolutely carry benefits that come with stable families and sufficient money, and there are plenty of people miking it like a career welfare abuser. Too many people take too much for granted, and forget that many of us live in a privileged position relative most of the world and a distinct portion of the US population. The whole "Quiet quitting" thing is an example of the attitude he is talking about. People go to work to get paid, which means you are probably doing something that you would otherwise not do - that's why they pay you to do it. I don't support taking advantage of workers, but it wouldn't hurt some guys to actually put in some effort and not just take up space and whine.

[aurelius]

Well then I have good news for you...

[CaptainAwesome]

I spent most of my working life in the US. I am white. I am middle class (Arguably upper middle class at this point based on money on the bank). I also was a 90 day fiancee, an immigrant on a Green Card (Which isn't green, BTW) with a high school education. I was always categorized automatically as Student A, for better or worse, and generally it was for better to be fair. I worked with guys that epitomized the complaints of @aurelius . The women in the office frequently were more reliable and diligent, as were the guys with no degree. I don't have a lot of sympathy for the guys that would be considered my "Peers". We absolutely carry benefits that come with stable families and sufficient money, and there are plenty of people miking it like a career welfare abuser. Too many people take too much for granted, and forget that many of us live in a privileged position relative most of the world and a distinct portion of the US population. The whole "Quiet quitting" thing is an example of the attitude he is talking about. People go to work to get paid, which means you are probably doing something that you would otherwise not do - that's why they pay you to do it. I don't support taking advantage of workers, but it wouldn't hurt some guys to actually put in some effort and not just take up space and whine.

What kind of "effort"? Would getting an 8 hour job done by yourself in 6 with minimal information on what needs to be done because the "supervisor" flaked out count as effort? Would solving a vexing problem with a printer in a hospital facility as an unpaid intern while the rest of the employed IT staff totally gave up on it by doing independent research, and then TEACHING the people actually paid to do the job how to do the fix count as "effort"? How old are you again? I don't think you understand how this world works for younger people.

When your perceived "privileges" earn you contempt from strangers who determine whether or not you get opportunities, those things cease to actually be a privilege.

[Hardartery]

I spent most of my working life in the US. I am white. I am middle class (Arguably upper middle class at this point based on money on the bank). I also was a 90 day fiancee, an immigrant on a Green Card (Which isn't green, BTW) with a high school education. I was always categorized automatically as Student A, for better or worse, and generally it was for better to be fair. I worked with guys that epitomized the complaints of @aurelius . The women in the office frequently were more reliable and diligent, as were the guys with no degree. I don't have a lot of sympathy for the guys that would be considered my "Peers". We absolutely carry benefits that come with stable families and sufficient money, and there are plenty of people miking it like a career welfare abuser. Too many people take too much for granted, and forget that many of us live in a privileged position relative most of the world and a distinct portion of the US population. The whole "Quiet quitting" thing is an example of the attitude he is talking about. People go to work to get paid, which means you are probably doing something that you would otherwise not do - that's why they pay you to do it. I don't support taking advantage of workers, but it wouldn't hurt some guys to actually put in some effort and not just take up space and whine.

What kind of "effort"? Would getting an 8 hour job done by yourself in 6 with minimal information on what needs to be done because the "supervisor" flaked out count as effort? Would solving a vexing problem with a printer in a hospital facility as an unpaid intern while the rest of the employed IT staff totally gave up on it by doing independent research, and then TEACHING the people actually paid to do the job how to do the fix count as "effort"? How old are you again? I don't think you understand how this world works for younger people.

That is the stuff that counts, and it was noted by me with my crew. I am 50, so I don't know where I fit anymore on the young-old scale. I joke about being old, but these days I am not relatively old. I was a 20 year old immigrant with the money from selling my car to my name, now I am retired since my mid 40's. I worked a lot of jobs, sometimes including delivering pizzas and cleaning offices at night in addition to my regular job. Life can be tough, today is not more difficult than 20 years ago. I think there is a point to be made in with the idea that there is a general lack of struggle coming from certain backgrounds, in general. I don't come from a poor family, but also had to work and pay for my own stuff from an early age.
Side note, my research psychologist sister, who specializes in early childhood development, carries the distinct and unpopular in - university circles - opinion that a fault in modern Western society is that kids are tasked within the family and are not given duties to feel responsible and important as a contributing family member. Obviously there are exceptions, this is a general societal movement. I also am not out of touch with my nieces and nephews, who range in age from 2 to 30. I know what the older ones have gone through in reaching maturity and finding their place in life.

[aurelius]

Would getting an 8 hour job done by yourself in 6 with minimal information on what needs to be done because the "supervisor" flaked out count as effort?

Not having more information: I would describe that as meeting expectations in my industry. It is an expectation that a graduate engineer shows up day 1 and is 90% billable. They will not get formal training. They will be assigned project tasks, paired with a project engineer who also has a full workload, pointed to resources, and essentially left to figure it out. The whole point of hiring people with engineering degrees is they should be 1) intelligent 2) have basic problem solving skills and 3) can self learn. A lot of people can't hack it. I read some years ago that 1 out of 3 engineers leave the design/consulting industry within the first 5 years. Many move to government roles where they don't have to be technically competent and the job demands are much less.

I don't know your industry or background. You seem to be taking this Student A/B thing personally. Which relates more to giving access to higher education.

My statements based on my 20 years of observation and experience are just that. N = 1. They may or may not apply to you. And of course I am speaking in generalizations for brevity. A more accurate statement:

My experience in my career is there is a significantly greater proportion of white males from the top 2 quintiles that do not have an accurate self assessment of their work ethic, capabilities, and general value to the company as compared to other demographics. In general, this demographic greatly overestimates their contributions. They act entitled to much greater compensation and status than they are deserving. When they do not receive greater compensation and status, they develop poor attitudes and become liabilities in the workplace. This is NOT the majority of white males I have worked with. My observation is there is a greater proportion of these 'bad apples' in the white male from the top 2 quintiles population I have worked with. There could be selection reasons for that in my industry which may or may not be worth discussing. But that is my experience.

This is the daily Calvin and Hobbes and it somewhat is relevant to our discussion:

https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2023/07/06

[hector]

That's a pretty unfair characterization of his statement, his description of "Student A" was actually fairly detailed and involved a lot more than colour and class. Speaking as a middle class white guy, I am not offended by it. I did not encounter a lot of Student B people in office setting though, I found that most people fit the Student A profile if they had a degree.

Being "Student A" and having basically been shut out of even lowest-level entry level work in the field I actually studied in college, I'm a little fed up with people who look at a couple surface level criteria and decide they have entirely figured me out as a useless person unworthy of even jobs with a low bar of entry. You know, the ones I'm supposed to be doing to showcase to my "betters" that I'm not "entitled" in the first place. Because I'm middle class white guy who didn't grow up in some kind of broken home, the conclusion is I've been handed everything in my life the moment they meet me. That's what I'm seeing on display here. But hey, maybe they're all right. Maybe I'm a piece of shit because I didn't get perfect grades in everything and become an astronaut.

I have no insights into your professional field or your work environments. But my guess is that it’s more likely you’ve just been working with assholes.
I’ve worked random jobs and people of all races generally got along and were productive.