Do commercial gyms hire bad trainers on purpose?

[CaptainAwesome]

I've been really confounded trying to find work in this field, and seeing the guys I get passed over for in action. Typically they do not even appear to be people who exercise on their own, and the "training" they offer is terrible. Their clients are often able to casually converse with them mid-set. I did happen to find out the business model these gyms use for their trainers though, and it makes a bit more sense to me. They make people pay up front for a package of personal training sessions. But the trainer is only getting paid if the person shows up and trains with them. So I wonder, is their personal training model the same as their overall gym membership model, relying on payments from people who aren't actually even showing up? Do they PREFER bad trainers, because bad trainers have high washout rates for clients, and thus the gym gets the pay for all those sessions, but DOESN'T have to pay the trainers after their clients get frustrated and quit?

[broseph]

I've been really confounded trying to find work in this field, and seeing the guys I get passed over for in action. Typically they do not even appear to be people who exercise on their own, and the "training" they offer is terrible. Their clients are often able to casually converse with them mid-set. I did happen to find out the business model these gyms use for their trainers though, and it makes a bit more sense to me. They make people pay up front for a package of personal training sessions. But the trainer is only getting paid if the person shows up and trains with them. So I wonder, is their personal training model the same as their overall gym membership model, relying on payments from people who aren't actually even showing up? Do they PREFER bad trainers, because bad trainers have high washout rates for clients, and thus the gym gets the pay for all those sessions, but DOESN'T have to pay the trainers after their clients get frustrated and quit?

In my experience, most people paying for "personal training" (which is very different than hiring a coach) have money to throw around, enjoy telling others they have a personal trainer, don't want to work very hard, want to feel like they're doing some kind secret sauce routine, have zero interest in getting better at working out, and DO NOT WANT TO GET INJURED.

I don't have a problem with any of this, and at the end of the day it's probably better that they're doing something rather than nothing. But yeah, TLDR; personal trainers are more like a lifestyle accessory than a fitness coach.

[mouse]

In my experience, most people paying for "personal training" (which is very different than hiring a coach) have money to throw around, enjoy telling others they have a personal trainer, don't want to work very hard, want to feel like they're doing some kind secret sauce routine, have zero interest in getting better at working out, and DO NOT WANT TO GET INJURED.

There is no better explanation than this available on the internet.

My boss said the esporta (sp?) he trains at has 'trainers' who apparently yell louder and take more selfies than the customers now...

[CaptainAwesome]

I figured the people with lots of money to throw around aren't hiring trainers in crowded commercial gyms, they are hitting up private studios that aren't full of gym members they have to compete for equipment with. I can't really think of another explanation for the hiring patterns I've seen at gyms, aside from them wanting the trainers to do a bad job. The turnover is also enormous. I've never seen their trainers last past the period where if they don't meet session quotas they're fired. I really think the whole thing is setup for both client and trainer to fail, and the gym to just pocket a shitload of money.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I think this EliteFTS article makes sense

https://www.elitefts.com/education/trai ... r-paradox/

More generally, from my observations, the average person you'll find in a gym:

- has no almost no knowledge about training
- does not want to increase their knowledge about training
- does not want to work hard
- does not care about progression
- is not consistent
- is not strong nor muscular
- has problems performing basic actions like eating three square meals a day and going to bed on time
- has modest goals (like see their abs for the first time or be able to run a 5k or see a bicep vein or whatever)

You can browse subreddits like r/Fitness and r/gainit and it pretty much confirms this. Imagine this: some people find it so hard to get their ass to the gym 3 times a week and eat chicken and rice that they post about it on the internet, and congratulate each other.

For a population like this, the only thing that matters is getting them to the gym 3+ times a week, and maybe make sure they're getting 3 meals a day that do not include a pop tart as the protein source. Literally. You can get them to do p90x and they'll get results. You can make them do zumba they'll get results. You can make them squat for sets of 5 and they'll get results. You can make them push a prowler and they'll get results.

So anyone can do that. The most clueless trainer can do that. An AI can do that. A horse can do that (ok maybe not a dumb horse but still). This means that there is no correlation between training knowledge and your ability to be a successful trainer. None.

Now you could argue that I'm encouraging people to be mediocre. But the vast majority of people are mediocre at almost everything they do. And they're doing fine. They're happy with being mediocre. People who care enough about training to end up on a forum discussing training every week (like us) are not the majority, they are outliers. You can't make money with outliers, unless you are in a small niche (like you are Mike T and you train only IPF champions).

[CaptainAwesome]

I think this EliteFTS article makes sense

https://www.elitefts.com/education/trai ... r-paradox/

More generally, from my observations, the average person you'll find in a gym:

- has no almost no knowledge about training
- does not want to increase their knowledge about training
- does not want to work hard
- does not care about progression
- is not consistent
- is not strong nor muscular
- has problems performing basic actions like eating three square meals a day and going to bed on time
- has modest goals (like see their abs for the first time or be able to run a 5k or see a bicep vein or whatever)

You can browse subreddits like r/Fitness and r/gainit and it pretty much confirms this. Imagine this: some people find it so hard to get their ass to the gym 3 times a week and eat chicken and rice that they post about it on the internet, and congratulate each other.

For a population like this, the only thing that matters is getting them to the gym 3+ times a week, and maybe make sure they're getting 3 meals a day that do not include a pop tart as the protein source. Literally. You can get them to do p90x and they'll get results. You can make them do zumba they'll get results. You can make them squat for sets of 5 and they'll get results. You can make them push a prowler and they'll get results.

So anyone can do that. The most clueless trainer can do that. An AI can do that. A horse can do that (ok maybe not a dumb horse but still). This means that there is no correlation between training knowledge and your ability to be a successful trainer. None.

Now you could argue that I'm encouraging people to be mediocre. But the vast majority of people are mediocre at almost everything they do. And they're doing fine. They're happy with being mediocre. People who care enough about training to end up on a forum discussing training every week (like us) are not the majority, they are outliers. You can't make money with outliers, unless you are in a small niche (like you are Mike T and you train only IPF champions).

This isn't really what I'm talking about. The trainers I see aren't really having much of ANY success. They barely work, and they do not look like they are "in shape" at all. But these gyms seem to prefer them anyway. They're not just charismatic people with shitty training knowledge who attract a following. I'm already well aware you need to moderate expectations when training other people, they are not all looking to excel as much as possible. I train my mother on a pretty basic setup that probably isn't very "optimal", but it gets done what it needs to and she makes slow progress. She's been talking about wanting to do some arm stuff, so I figure we can slip a third day between the two full body sessions just to do arm stuff. It's more about giving the client some control of the program to have some things they specifically want. Don't try to make them choose squats over the "butt blaster", just setup a program that has them successfully utilizing both to reach their stated goals.

What I am talking about is who these gyms hire in the first place. Not a single long term success story on their training staff. They don't even have "head trainers" because none of their regular ones last. They hire lousy trainers who get ushered out because they can't keep clients after they are held to a quota after a few months. I've been going to these gyms since the post-lockdown reopening and not a single trainer lasted a whole year.

[Culican]

Now you could argue that I'm encouraging people to be mediocre. But the vast majority of people are mediocre at almost everything they do. And they're doing fine. They're happy with being mediocre. People who care enough about training to end up on a forum discussing training every week (like us) are not the majority, they are outliers. You can't make money with outliers, unless you are in a small niche (like you are Mike T and you train only IPF champions).

[broseph]

What I am talking about is who these gyms hire in the first place.

Most people suck at stuff. You could ask this same question about every job ever.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Now you could argue that I'm encouraging people to be mediocre. But the vast majority of people are mediocre at almost everything they do. And they're doing fine. They're happy with being mediocre. People who care enough about training to end up on a forum discussing training every week (like us) are not the majority, they are outliers. You can't make money with outliers, unless you are in a small niche (like you are Mike T and you train only IPF champions).

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I think this EliteFTS article makes sense

https://www.elitefts.com/education/trai ... r-paradox/

More generally, from my observations, the average person you'll find in a gym:

- has no almost no knowledge about training
- does not want to increase their knowledge about training
- does not want to work hard
- does not care about progression
- is not consistent
- is not strong nor muscular
- has problems performing basic actions like eating three square meals a day and going to bed on time
- has modest goals (like see their abs for the first time or be able to run a 5k or see a bicep vein or whatever)

You can browse subreddits like r/Fitness and r/gainit and it pretty much confirms this. Imagine this: some people find it so hard to get their ass to the gym 3 times a week and eat chicken and rice that they post about it on the internet, and congratulate each other.

For a population like this, the only thing that matters is getting them to the gym 3+ times a week, and maybe make sure they're getting 3 meals a day that do not include a pop tart as the protein source. Literally. You can get them to do p90x and they'll get results. You can make them do zumba they'll get results. You can make them squat for sets of 5 and they'll get results. You can make them push a prowler and they'll get results.

So anyone can do that. The most clueless trainer can do that. An AI can do that. A horse can do that (ok maybe not a dumb horse but still). This means that there is no correlation between training knowledge and your ability to be a successful trainer. None.

Now you could argue that I'm encouraging people to be mediocre. But the vast majority of people are mediocre at almost everything they do. And they're doing fine. They're happy with being mediocre. People who care enough about training to end up on a forum discussing training every week (like us) are not the majority, they are outliers. You can't make money with outliers, unless you are in a small niche (like you are Mike T and you train only IPF champions).

This isn't really what I'm talking about. The trainers I see aren't really having much of ANY success. They barely work, and they do not look like they are "in shape" at all. But these gyms seem to prefer them anyway. They're not just charismatic people with shitty training knowledge who attract a following. I'm already well aware you need to moderate expectations when training other people, they are not all looking to excel as much as possible. I train my mother on a pretty basic setup that probably isn't very "optimal", but it gets done what it needs to and she makes slow progress. She's been talking about wanting to do some arm stuff, so I figure we can slip a third day between the two full body sessions just to do arm stuff. It's more about giving the client some control of the program to have some things they specifically want. Don't try to make them choose squats over the "butt blaster", just setup a program that has them successfully utilizing both to reach their stated goals.

What I am talking about is who these gyms hire in the first place. Not a single long term success story on their training staff. They don't even have "head trainers" because none of their regular ones last. They hire lousy trainers who get ushered out because they can't keep clients after they are held to a quota after a few months. I've been going to these gyms since the post-lockdown reopening and not a single trainer lasted a whole year.

I understand what you mean. I have never worked at a globogym (or in any gym) so I'm not sure as to why. Now I can imagine a few possible explanations:

- the "good trainers" don't want to work at a globogym ? If you were a competitive bodybuilder or a high level powerlifter you'd probably not want to train old ladies and desk jockeys. So the only ones who apply are the people you describe.
- the globogyms don't want the good trainers to work at their globogyms ? A lot of these individuals could be scary to normies (imagine louie simmons giving a trap slap to your grandma who started lifting last month). So the trainers who look like pool noodles might make lifting more approachable. Hell i'm sure even Rip could intimidate some normies.
- being a personal trainer at a globogym is not very attractive in general ? I'm not sure the pay is high, it's boring etc. So the people who apply might not be very talented and/or motivated to work hard. Most clients will never come back after a few sessions, so why bother making sure they train correctly ?
- the idea that retention = success might be flawed ? The business of globogyms is to sell people memberships and make sure that they do not come. They hate people who come every day, use the equipment etc. So the personal training might work the same way: the goal is to sell you a bunch of sessions that you pay upfront and make sure that you don't come maybe.

I don't know there are a lot of possible explanations I guess.

On a side note, If your mother follows an program (of your design as far as i understand) and she's making consistent slow progress, then she can't be considered an "average trainee". And she's an older woman (no disrespect) who demands to have an arm day to work on her pythons (!) Holy hell, she's dangerously close to being an outlier.

[CaptainAwesome]

On a side note, If your mother follows an program (of your design as far as i understand) and she's making consistent slow progress, then she can't be considered an "average trainee". And she's an older woman (no disrespect) who demands to have an arm day to work on her pythons (!) Holy hell, she's dangerously close to being an outlier.

I'll admit she takes more of an interest in this stuff than most probably do. But she's not gonna be heading to masters powerlifting competitions anytime soon. The arm work is just because she wants to lessen that loose skin effect older people often get on the arms, especially older women. I don't know how well that's going to work out, but I do know it probably won't hurt to just get stronger arms in general, and it fits into what she's already doing. I'd say most people who even go to gyms are already technically outliers.

[ChasingCurls69]

I've been really confounded trying to find work in this field, and seeing the guys I get passed over for in action. Typically they do not even appear to be people who exercise on their own, and the "training" they offer is terrible. Their clients are often able to casually converse with them mid-set. I did happen to find out the business model these gyms use for their trainers though, and it makes a bit more sense to me. They make people pay up front for a package of personal training sessions. But the trainer is only getting paid if the person shows up and trains with them. So I wonder, is their personal training model the same as their overall gym membership model, relying on payments from people who aren't actually even showing up? Do they PREFER bad trainers, because bad trainers have high washout rates for clients, and thus the gym gets the pay for all those sessions, but DOESN'T have to pay the trainers after their clients get frustrated and quit?

Do you mean passed over for by the clients they are training, or passed over for as in that gym did not hire you as a trainer?

I think if someone complains/quits, they get shuffled to another trainer to finish their sessions, or they get refunded the remaining sessions. But last time I worked at that type of gym there was still pretty high turnover in the 6-12 months they gave you to meet the quota for sessions.

The barrier to entry is low for becoming a trainer, and there's no set standard so it's a combo of sucking at sales, sucking at training, or sucking at both. It probs doesn't cost the gym much to churn through them, especially when they give trainers minimum wage floor shifts to clean up after the homonculi and "prospect," and take 60-70% of the PT session price.

[CaptainAwesome]

Do you mean passed over for by the clients they are training, or passed over for as in that gym did not hire you as a trainer?

I think if someone complains/quits, they get shuffled to another trainer to finish their sessions, or they get refunded the remaining sessions. But last time I worked at that type of gym there was still pretty high turnover in the 6-12 months they gave you to meet the quota for sessions.

The barrier to entry is low for becoming a trainer, and there's no set standard so it's a combo of sucking at sales, sucking at training, or sucking at both. It probs doesn't cost the gym much to churn through them, especially when they give trainers minimum wage floor shifts to clean up after the homonculi and "prospect," and take 60-70% of the PT session price.

I mean as in the gyms wouldn't hire me in favor of people who aren't terribly charismatic, don't look like they do any exercise of their own, and don't seem to know what the hell to do with their clients. As far as I'm aware, quitters are not refunded. If you buy a "package," have a few sessions you don't like and stop showing up, the gym retains all the payment you made up front for sessions. It also doesn't pay that trainer for those sessions you aren't showing up for anymore. They still have to show up in case you do though, unless you actually let it be known you're not coming back. I think they are fine just grinding through trainers that they want to fail, that way the unused sessions are basically just free money for the gym. The gym more or less makes double the money per session if the client doesn't show up, because now it doesn't have to pay the trainer.

[aurelius]

- has modest goals (like see their abs

[KyleSchuant]

Now you could argue that I'm encouraging people to be mediocre. But the vast majority of people are mediocre at almost everything they do. And they're doing fine. They're happy with being mediocre. People who care enough about training to end up on a forum discussing training every week (like us) are not the majority, they are outliers. You can't make money with outliers, unless you are in a small niche (like you are Mike T and you train only IPF champions).

Your whole post was good, and your conclusion excellent.

Gyms do this because there is not demand for better. If gyms only dealt with the people who showed up all the time and worked hard, their fees would have to be much, much higher. The barrier to entry for a trainer is low, people get in quick and leave quick. Talk to any young doctor and they're miserable, but after busting their arse for years in high school to get into medicine and then doing a five year degree, plus $250,000 in debt, the senior doctor could just about rape them with a cattle prod after every shift and they wouldn't quit. But a six week course and $3,000? "Whatever, fuck this, I'm out."

The trainers who stick around long enough to get decent at their job will demand higher fees from potential clients. And the thing about training is that you don't know its value until you've had it. Only about one-third of the people reporting their SS novice linear progression results had any coaching at all. "Oh, I can do this on my own." Even those who want to push themselves a bit harder tend not to pay for it. So the typical trainer has no real incentive to go beyond the bosu ball.

Lots of people here wondering why most trainers are so shit have never themselves hired one. That's why they're shit. If even the more driven people won't pay, why should these guys bother getting better? And of course, if they're shit then why should you pay? It's a vicious spiral.

[CaptainAwesome]

Gyms do this because there is not demand for better. If gyms only dealt with the people who showed up all the time and worked hard, their fees would have to be much, much higher. The barrier to entry for a trainer is low, people get in quick and leave quick. Talk to any young doctor and they're miserable, but after busting their arse for years in high school to get into medicine and then doing a five year degree, plus $250,000 in debt, the senior doctor could just about rape them with a cattle prod after every shift and they wouldn't quit. But a six week course and $3,000? "Whatever, fuck this, I'm out."

The trainers who stick around long enough to get decent at their job will demand higher fees from potential clients. And the thing about training is that you don't know its value until you've had it. Only about one-third of the people reporting their SS novice linear progression results had any coaching at all. "Oh, I can do this on my own." Even those who want to push themselves a bit harder tend not to pay for it. So the typical trainer has no real incentive to go beyond the bosu ball.

Lots of people here wondering why most trainers are so shit have never themselves hired one. That's why they're shit. If even the more driven people won't pay, why should these guys bother getting better? And of course, if they're shit then why should you pay? It's a vicious spiral.

I'm not wondering why most trainers are lousy. I took the same sort of certification exam the others did. I KNOW why they're lousy. If I worked based on the stuff included in that course material to train people, I'd be lousy too. I'm wondering why gyms hire up lousy trainers over better ones. I still think it's because they make more money if the clients quit. I was curious if anyone who'd worked at one of these places had actually seen that to be the case.

[KyleSchuant]

I'm wondering why gyms hire up lousy trainers over better ones.

I answered that.

The trainers who stick around long enough to get decent at their job will demand higher fees from potential clients. And the thing about training is that you don't know its value until you've had it. Only about one-third of the people reporting their SS novice linear progression results had any coaching at all. "Oh, I can do this on my own." Even those who want to push themselves a bit harder tend not to pay for it. So the typical trainer has no real incentive to go beyond the bosu ball.

In other words, the gyms have to hire shitty trainers because there aren't enough good ones, and most gym members won't know the difference anyway, and if they do won't care. As a gym owner, why would you wait 6 months to find someone good when you can find someone mediocre today, and pay them extra when most of your gym members don't care?

Earlier this year I had someone enquire with me about training. They decided to go for the "boutique PT" gym across the road from their place. I followed up today and asked how they were doing - a healthy 42yo was "stuck" (their words) at 22.5kg RDLs (yes, with a barbell, not a one-legged dumbbell version) after 6-8 weeks. This "boutique PT" place is able to pay the rent with fees from people like this. Not the fault of the various clients, they don't know any better, not their job to.

Gym owners hire shitty trainers because there aren't enough good ones, and most gym members don't know the difference and don't care.

I still think it's because they make more money if the clients quit.

No. Gyms actually get more value out of PTs when they act as gym instructors, showing new people through the place. As an example, the two basic models in Australia are rental and percentage. With rental, the PT pays (say) $300pw and then charges whatever they like directly from the client. With a percentage, the gym charges the client (say) $100ph, and takes about 50% of it; the more successful trainers do 10-15hr pw and so the gym gets $500-$750 from them, but that'll just be 1-2 out of 10-12 trainers, the rest do a few hours here and there, so it comes to about the same $300 or so on average.

But when the PT acts as a gym instructor, it's different. At one place I worked the place charged about $1,200 annually, with suspensions for holidays, old age and student discounts etc that averaged to $1,000. When people just signed up and did their own thing, about 40% were still members 12 months later, and so each new member was worth about $400 on average. But when people did the initial gym instructor appointment and programme showthrough, this jumped to 80%, or $800. So the 2hr the gym instructor spent on that they were paid $50 for, and the gym made $400, for a net $350.

Thus, the gym instructor showing one person through a programme each week was worth more money to the gym than their rental, or the percentage of any but the most successful trainers. If they did (say) 10 people over 20 hours, they'd be paid $500 and generate $4,000 in income for the gym, a net $3,500 - $182k annually.

And that's even if they just did treadmill and bosu nonsense.

The real financial value of a trainer to a globogym owner isn't teaching someone to squat in a personal training session. It's having them take newbies around the place, talk some shit to them and make them feel comfortable in the place. For that you don't need to be the world's best trainer. Just don't be a social retard, and don't actually injure them in their first session.

[mbasic]

I'm not wondering why most trainers are lousy. I took the same sort of certification exam the others did. I KNOW why they're lousy. If I worked based on the stuff included in that course material to train people, I'd be lousy too. I'm wondering why gyms hire up lousy trainers over better ones. I still think it's because they make more money if the clients quit. I was curious if anyone who'd worked at one of these places had actually seen that to be the case.

I don't think the globogyms knowingly intentionally hire "bad" trainers.
I just think in the venn diagram of qualities of potential hires, bad training/coaching abilities and "good" personality traits the globo needs overlap a lot.

I would think if the client/trainee would have a good experience, they would talk to friends/relatives/coworkers and perhaps get more people to join the gym and/or sign up for personal training. Or they may get tired of talking to the trainer, and just keep "working out" at the gym .... and socializing with other people at the gym .....either friends they've convinced into joining, and/or the other members.

Some people won't workout consistently without a trainer, even in shape people. So the gym has to "keep" a few of these trainers around to keep up with that part of the market.

It seems to me, from my obversions at a globogym member for MANY years (decades? on and off), a lot of the clients and trainers TALK like a motherfucker while working out. Its truly incredible. Its almost like having a therapist, and/or a paid "friend". That said, the gym is hiring guys/gals based on their ability to be personable, social, chatty, etc. moreso than their knowledge of training, anatomy, human physiology .... the latter can be gleaned in about 30-40 hours of internet course material or a weekend certification course. The former (likable personality) is inherent to the person.

I as a 50 year old white male w/ chronic RBF who isn't sociable .... they ain't gonna hire me, or keep me around for long, although I'd be a good coach from a physical performance point of view.

Also, I think they like to hit the client with so much bullshit in the way of programming. The program the "sell" or make the trainee do, is so varied, complex, made up bullshit, etc ..... the client can't figure anything out for themselves, to the client will be forever dependent on the trainer and keep signing up month after month. They do NOT want to teach the client how to fish, they just keep giving them fish to eat. This last paragraph will make the trainer seem "bad" of course.

If I ever retire, I think I might start training people for $$$ as a side gig.

[mbasic]

- has modest goals (like see their abs

damn fucking straight !
(excellent use of meme material)

[CaptainAwesome]

The real financial value of a trainer to a globogym owner isn't teaching someone to squat in a personal training session. It's having them take newbies around the place, talk some shit to them and make them feel comfortable in the place. For that you don't need to be the world's best trainer. Just don't be a social retard, and don't actually injure them in their first session.

But many of the ones I see ARE social retards. And I include social skills as part of being a good trainer.