Knee cave anything to worry about?

[SSJBartSimpson]

It's happening, but should I care?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XNRJJgvsvQHh2AHZ9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fntSbprCNevXzfKd9

[James]

Everything I've read and heard is it's nothing to worry about unless it actually hurts or you're doing to to an extreme degree. Like touching your knees together and making an X with your legs making yourself unstable.

Can't watch the video at the moment.

[SSJBartSimpson]

Link not work, or you don't have good service?

[DCR]

It's happening, but should I care?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XNRJJgvsvQHh2AHZ9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fntSbprCNevXzfKd9

Dig the post rep celebration in the first vid.

That level of knee cave is absolutely nothing about which to be concerned. I wouldn't even refer to it as knee cave.

[KyleSchuant]

I don't think it's anything to worry about a lot in general, and yours is not significant anyway. Have a look at competitive weightlifters some time, coming up out of the bottom of their squat snatches or cleans - and they're fine.

If it worries you, you could do one of two things. Either narrow your stance an inch or so, then the "in" position of your knees will be exactly in line. Or if you like your current stance width, put some paused squats into your programme, and shove your knees out hard in the bottom position. I say this not because I think it matters in your case, but because it's good for you to experiment a bit and see what suits you.

[Michiganian]

... narrow your stance an inch or so, ...

... and point your toes out a bit more?

[Renascent]

Everything I've read and heard is it's nothing to worry about unless it actually hurts or you're doing to to an extreme degree.

I wouldn't even refer to it as knee cave.

I don't think it's anything to worry about a lot in general, and yours is not significant anyway. Have a look at competitive weightlifters some time, coming up out of the bottom of their squat snatches or cleans - and they're fine.

I wouldn't worry about it either.

[SSJBartSimpson]

Thanks for the tips and feedback yall.

[KyleSchuant]

... and point your toes out a bit more?

Usually a narrower stance means toes more forward, and wider stance means toes more out. The exception is people who do a "frog stance", where they're quite narrow but their toes and knees are out.

For general strength purposes it really doesn't matter. At most you'll try to arrange things so that your knees and toes are in line. To accomplish this you can shove your knees out more to bring them in line with your toes, or change where your toes point to bring them in line with your knees.

Whichever works for you depends on your individual anatomy, previous training and injury history and so on, and nobody can easily predict it. You just have to experiment a bit over the years with different width stances, do some low-bar, some high-bar, some front squats, some wide stance, some narrow stance, some paused, some high reps, some low reps, and so on.

But whatever happens, a momentary wobbling in and out of the knees during an 85+% lift is simply your body trying to bring the quads into it as much as it can, since at that part of the lift they've got the most to contribute. So it's nothing to sweat over. Lu Xiaojun has been doing it for years and he puts more overhead than most people ever deadlift.

[Wilhelm]

It's happening, but should I care?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XNRJJgvsvQHh2AHZ9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fntSbprCNevXzfKd9

That's not even that severe.
Mine can cave more than that with heavy weight.
I have just practiced pushing my knees out on the ascent.

It's more of a performance issue than anything.
Pushing them out brings my hips back under center of mass and makes the lift easier.
Honestly, yours is to me inconsequential.
Perhaps closer to your max it may become more pronounced, but the more you train pushing them out, the better you get at it, and earlier too.

Something something... Amanda Lawrence.

That level of knee cave is absolutely nothing about which to be concerned. I wouldn't even refer to it as knee cave.

^

[mbasic]

As others have said, your knee cave isn't that severe.

IMO, its a sign of weak(er) quads AND/OR when a lifter get to more more maximal loads, the quads are normally more of a limiter and are getting maxed out with their contribution to the lift. Abductors are also hip extensors as well as internal rotators, especially when the femur is at/or around 90 deg. .... and even more especially with a wide stance ... AND even moreso with your toes turned out. All those things makes them stretched out at or near parallel depth (or sticking point). Add to that, they're quite long and large muscles with substantial leverage; look at the insertion points. Your ADDuctors really have a shitty insertion point in terms of rotational leverage.

So when your knee extensors are getting maxed out, the hip extensors are gonna shine.....



As far as I know, the only real ADDuctors are the smaller sectors of the glutes (minimus, medius), and they attach kinda shitty at the very proximal end of the femur. The TFL is a small shitty muscle. Seems like the abductors are really going to over power femur rotation when push comes to shove.
I think the wider stance LBBS really plays into all this as well, rip is right about "most muscle mass".
But from an aesthetics, or olympic lifting POV, I don't know anyone saying: "look at my massive abductors dude!" ...except maybe for that one lady (who used to be a dude) at the circus that crushes watermelons between her thighs.

peace be with you and carry on

[CaptainAwesome]

I'd say only worry about it if it keeps getting more severe as the weight goes up. I remember I used to do this when I first started hitting really heavy weights for me as a novice, but I have no idea what made it stop happening. It's probably just one of those "cracks" that start to show in your form when you're hitting your limit, at least that's based on these videos being heavy singles. If I had to guess it's probably because you use a very wide stance that doesn't make a lot of use of the quads..at least until those knees come in a bit, then that gets them more involved. That's my guess, anyway. I've seen quite a few third attempt squat videos out there that have that knee movement happening in them.

[SSJBartSimpson]

So I tried narrowing my stance to see how that would impact things. It feels better going a bit deeper and getting more of that stretch reflex.
Now the problem is my bracing for some reason? Usually some air escapes from me during the valsalva when I'm near failure and really grinding, but it happened on my top single, my heavy rep sets, and my lighter back off set, and on all of them I felt like I could have done at least one more. Even the top single it went and felt really smooth, I just couldn't keep my brace through the last reps.
Anyone know what could be causing that? Just keeping used to the movement?
@CaptainAwesome @mbasic @Wilhelm @KyleSchuant @Renascent @DCR

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BBZcUDrcyevN4VPW9

[Hardartery]

So I tried narrowing my stance to see how that would impact things. It feels better going a bit deeper and getting more of that stretch reflex.
Now the problem is my bracing for some reason? Usually some air escapes from me during the valsalva when I'm near failure and really grinding, but it happened on my top single, my heavy rep sets, and my lighter back off set, and on all of them I felt like I could have done at least one more. Even the top single it went and felt really smooth, I just couldn't keep my brace through the last reps.
Anyone know what could be causing that? Just keeping used to the movement?
@CaptainAwesome @mbasic @Wilhelm @KyleSchuant @Renascent @DCR

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BBZcUDrcyevN4VPW9

Air escaping during the lift is not a loss of bracing. The fact that you expelled air is an indication that you in fact maintained bracing, it tends to exit either the mouth or the anus under pressure from a Valsalva. That's just what happens. If you didn't pop off a little through your natural relief valve you would likely pass out from the movement. You have as much as you can push past your sticking point, don't confuse that with how it feels at the bottom or the top.

Edit to add: grab the damn bar. That pushing on it with your wrists thing is not particularly safe nor is it good for your lift - especially above warmup weights.

[SSJBartSimpson]

So I tried narrowing my stance to see how that would impact things. It feels better going a bit deeper and getting more of that stretch reflex.
Now the problem is my bracing for some reason? Usually some air escapes from me during the valsalva when I'm near failure and really grinding, but it happened on my top single, my heavy rep sets, and my lighter back off set, and on all of them I felt like I could have done at least one more. Even the top single it went and felt really smooth, I just couldn't keep my brace through the last reps.
Anyone know what could be causing that? Just keeping used to the movement?
@CaptainAwesome @mbasic @Wilhelm @KyleSchuant @Renascent @DCR

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BBZcUDrcyevN4VPW9

Air escaping during the lift is not a loss of bracing. The fact that you expelled air is an indication that you in fact maintained bracing, it tends to exit either the mouth or the anus under pressure from a Valsalva. That's just what happens. If you didn't pop off a little through your natural relief valve you would likely pass out from the movement. You have as much as you can push past your sticking point, don't confuse that with how it feels at the bottom or the top.

Edit to add: grab the damn bar. That pushing on it with your wrists thing is not particularly safe nor is it good for your lift - especially above warmup weights.

Oh that's interesting, thanks!
And I'm not sure how else I can grab the bar as every other position I've tried on low bar has given me elbow tendinitis. whereas I've been doing it this way for over a year without any pain... The lower part of my palm is in contact and I don't feel any pressure on my wrists.

[Hardartery]

So I tried narrowing my stance to see how that would impact things. It feels better going a bit deeper and getting more of that stretch reflex.
Now the problem is my bracing for some reason? Usually some air escapes from me during the valsalva when I'm near failure and really grinding, but it happened on my top single, my heavy rep sets, and my lighter back off set, and on all of them I felt like I could have done at least one more. Even the top single it went and felt really smooth, I just couldn't keep my brace through the last reps.
Anyone know what could be causing that? Just keeping used to the movement?
@CaptainAwesome @mbasic @Wilhelm @KyleSchuant @Renascent @DCR

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BBZcUDrcyevN4VPW9

Air escaping during the lift is not a loss of bracing. The fact that you expelled air is an indication that you in fact maintained bracing, it tends to exit either the mouth or the anus under pressure from a Valsalva. That's just what happens. If you didn't pop off a little through your natural relief valve you would likely pass out from the movement. You have as much as you can push past your sticking point, don't confuse that with how it feels at the bottom or the top.

Edit to add: grab the damn bar. That pushing on it with your wrists thing is not particularly safe nor is it good for your lift - especially above warmup weights.

Oh that's interesting, thanks!
And I'm not sure how else I can grab the bar as every other position I've tried on low bar has given me elbow tendinitis. whereas I've been doing it this way for over a year without any pain... The lower part of my palm is in contact and I don't feel any pressure on my wrists.

False grip. If you don't wrap the thumb around the bar your tendonitis should be fine, you just want something to push with against the bar. It helps with getting enough tension in the back and also it helps fix the bar in position and keep it from rolling or sliding.

[SSJBartSimpson]

Maybe the angel is just bad, but my palms and fingers and gripping the bar, and my wrist aren't experiencing any pressure. When I try to bring more of my palm to the bar I get bad tennis elbow..

[KyleSchuant]

That certainly looks like it's more comfortable for you, it's overall smoother. Looking good.

As Hardartery said, I'd just move your hands about half an inch further down. A bit more palm contact would make the bar placement more solid, which will flow on to the rest of the lift. I don't see why half an inch down would bring on the tendonitis, but if you're worried about it you could also widen your grip slightly, call that half an inch, too.

Even if you're not keen to do this in your work sets, at least experiment a bit with grip placement and width through your warmups.

[SSJBartSimpson]

That certainly looks like it's more comfortable for you, it's overall smoother. Looking good.

As Hardartery said, I'd just move your hands about half an inch further down. A bit more palm contact would make the bar placement more solid, which will flow on to the rest of the lift. I don't see why half an inch down would bring on the tendonitis, but if you're worried about it you could also widen your grip slightly, call that half an inch, too.

Even if you're not keen to do this in your work sets, at least experiment a bit with grip placement and width through your warmups.

Thanks dude, I'll test that out.

[Renascent]

...you could also widen your grip slightly, call that half an inch, too.

Even if you're not keen to do this in your work sets, at least experiment a bit with grip placement and width through your warmups.

Someone gave me the same advice for my low-bar setup, and it was a huge improvement, in my case.

Of course, if what you've already been doing is working just fine, then there's probably no need to change anything about your grip.