Counter-Intuitive bench grip ideas.

[augeleven]

my (non-Jame Gumb) tuck-level

_(´ཀ`」 ∠)_

FWIW, I’m 5’10”, have about the same wingspan.
My grip is index finger about 2” in from the smooth (measured by a thumbs length).
This definitely feels the most comfortable, although I have spent the most time doing it.
I’m thinking about experimenting with a wider grip though.

What do you all think might be a more interesting experiment: having a dedicated wide grip day, or doing a alternating competencies strategy?

[Marenghi]

@Marenghi Nuckols is looking at it from a biomechanical pov. The conclusion you draw from it is a bit misguided, I think. In theory, the Low-Bar Squat is the strongest for everyone. Practically, it comes with a lot of caveats and yeah-but's. The Bench Press is not magically different.

Oh yeah, ofc. I was just arguing that there probably is no "trick" or biomechanical reason for lifters with long upper arms to use a narrow grip (and thus get a really nasty elbow angle at the bottom).

And when were talking about personal experiences when using a narrower grip - then I remarked there may be lots of reasons why there may be a short term improvement. Its even expected for some people who used a too broad of a grip, maybe do extra triceps work - but no isolated chest work. And in addition to that "not being able to handle much volume bc of shoulders" of course is a killer point for any theoretically superior grip width: if you cant train with a certain grip width, you wont perform.

Imo the pecs are underdeveloped in many, and compared to them the triceps and front delts are advanced due to OHP and arm work, as cable cross over/flys are often thought of as just silly bro work.

[mgil]

Imo the pecs are underdeveloped in many, and compared to them the triceps and front delts are advanced due to OHP and arm work, as cable cross over/flys are often thought of as just silly bro work.

This is likely true in certain realms of the innerwebs.

[lehman906]

my (non-Jame Gumb) tuck-level

_(´ཀ`」 ∠)_

FWIW, I’m 5’10”, have about the same wingspan.
My grip is index finger about 2” in from the smooth (measured by a thumbs length).
This definitely feels the most comfortable, although I have spent the most time doing it.
I’m thinking about experimenting with a wider grip though.

What do you all think might be a more interesting experiment: having a dedicated wide grip day, or doing a alternating competencies strategy?

Glad you appreciated that reference.

Maybe do all assistance benching WG, but only move your Comp grip out very slowly?

[mbasic]

lolz, hot off the presses

[GlasgowJock]

I'm 5ft 9in, short limbed and broad shouldered, have my pinkies on the rings benching as I'm strong off the chest. Think to an extent folk need to find a grip width that suits their anthropometry.

[mgil]

lolz, hot off the presses

We’ve been predicting content in some weird way since damn near September 2017.

[simonrest]

re grip width I *feel* most comfortable with my pinkies about an inch in from the mark, but I definitely bench more with a wider grip. I'm now index finger on the mark, and have even tried getting wider again and twisting my hands in to be just on the mark (japanese grip). I find this works best with a sunk bench so I can get a bit of assistance off the chest.

[lehman906]

Just went up to singles at 245 with middle finger on rings, then another with index just touching the smooth (haven’t done a close grip in months): close grip was still faster. Conclusion- shit’s weird.

[janoycresva]

another very lanky / mechanically disadvantaged bencher checking in (6’8” armspan, thin torso, can’t arch worth a fuck because my torso is 2 inches long), this has been exactly the case for me as well - always stronger close grip

spent a year+ doing only middle finger on rings, was still immediately stronger with an unpracticed close grip

[lehman906]

another very lanky / mechanically disadvantaged bencher checking in (6’8” armspan, thin torso, can’t arch worth a fuck because my torso is 2 inches long), this has been exactly the case for me as well - always stronger close grip

spent a year+ doing only middle finger on rings, was still immediately stronger with an unpracticed close grip

Recently I decided to try Greg Nuckol’s advice and flare my elbows on the way down instead of keeping them tucked like I always have (I learned to bench from old west side vhs tapes) and it felt so much better and there was so much more pop at the bottom. Of course there was, with me finally using my pecs. My grip didn’t widen any, though. Still pinky on ring. So a relatively close grip is still cool, but I think the lesson for us albatrosses is to not be afraid of our shoulders exploding if we do a normal 45 degree flare. I’m still never going to move to a wide grip, though.

[Hardartery]

another very lanky / mechanically disadvantaged bencher checking in (6’8” armspan, thin torso, can’t arch worth a fuck because my torso is 2 inches long), this has been exactly the case for me as well - always stronger close grip

spent a year+ doing only middle finger on rings, was still immediately stronger with an unpracticed close grip

My wingspan is 77", at a 72" height. Middle finger on the ring is the nice spot for me, although I am fine at max legal grip if the bench allows it (The uprights are in the way more often than one would expect). I don't enjoy narrow grip at all, but definitely bench better with the elbows out. Not just flared as the bar descends, I put them out to the sides and leave them there. I never use a shirt, so tucking the elbows just hurt my bench overall.

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

I think that the main problem with all those rules of the type "well if your arms are long and your torso is crooked and your pecs are big and your shoulders are medium then you should do X Y Z" is that they are purely based on how the lifter looks like on the outside, and neglect how the lifter is put together on the inside. For instance how their muscles are inserted on bones. This has a huge impact on how much force can be produced in any given position. And it is impossible to measure without dissection.

This is why analyzing things by drawing stick figures like you see in starting strength does not make a lot of sense if you are trying to predict how to maximize the amount of weight that can be lifted. To me the only valid method is to try and see for yourself what works best like suggested above.

Especially if it is just about selecting bench press grip: you have about 3 grips, just rotate between them each session and in a few months it'll be pretty clear which grip allows you to exert the most force. Actually this is an advantage of Westside-esque training: you rotate all the time so you always have data telling you which grips and stances and bars make you the strongest.

[SnakePlissken]

I think that the main problem with all those rules of the type "well if your arms are long and your torso is crooked and your pecs are big and your shoulders are medium then you should do X Y Z" is that they are purely based on how the lifter looks like on the outside, and neglect how the lifter is put together on the inside. For instance how their muscles are inserted on bones. This has a huge impact on how much force can be produced in any given position. And it is impossible to measure without dissection.

This is why analyzing things by drawing stick figures like you see in starting strength does not make a lot of sense if you are trying to predict how to maximize the amount of weight that can be lifted. To me the only valid method is to try and see for yourself what works best like suggested above.

Especially if it is just about selecting bench press grip: you have about 3 grips, just rotate between them each session and in a few months it'll be pretty clear which grip allows you to exert the most force. Actually this is an advantage of Westside-esque training: you rotate all the time so you always have data telling you which grips and stances and bars make you the strongest.

How I've always viewed it too. My normal bench grip is about 1-2 finger widths inside the ring. Benching with my pinkies on the rings and out gives me nerve pain in my elbows after doing it for long periods of time so I only do WG (which is everyone elses normal grip) during a base and for 8s-12s where I'm doing less than 200lb weight.

[Hanley]

Especially if it is just about selecting bench press grip: you have about 3 grips, just rotate between them each session and in a few months it'll be pretty clear which grip allows you to exert the most force.

I mostly agree, but if you're starting from a state of disproportionately weak/small pecs, changing your grip won't do much to change the [hand-wave] force-production ratios of pecs:triceps&front delts.

Or a [pec meat]/[tricep & delt meat].

I suspect if the folks with superior narrow grip bench took 6 months and made pec hypertrophy a goal (sans any comp benching), they'd probably see novel lifetime bench PRs using a wider grip within 3-4 months of reintroducing competition bench training.

A crude proxy for a good pec-hypertrophy session might be "ridiculous pec pump / burn / fatigue" (I suspect lots of our flat-chested friends have never experienced this sort of pec fatigue). Do 2-3 high-fatigue pec sessions a week for 6 months, grow a barrel-chest, then train wide-grip bench*, profit.

* Assuming no shoulder fuckery.

###

Really this thread could probably be titled: "The entirely intuitive and rational mechanical consequences of benching with small tits" (amirite fellas?)

[CheekiBreekiFitness]

Especially if it is just about selecting bench press grip: you have about 3 grips, just rotate between them each session and in a few months it'll be pretty clear which grip allows you to exert the most force.

I mostly agree, but if you're starting from a state of disproportionately weak/small pecs, changing your grip won't do much to change the [hand-wave] force-production ratios of pecs:triceps&front delts.

Or a [pec meat]/[tricep & delt meat].

I suspect if the folks with superior narrow grip bench took 6 months and made pec hypertrophy a goal (sans any comp benching), they'd probably see novel lifetime bench PRs using a wider grip within 3-4 months of reintroducing competition bench training.

A crude proxy for a good pec-hypertrophy session might be "ridiculous pec pump / burn / fatigue" (I suspect lots of our flat-chested friends have never experienced this sort of pec fatigue). Do 2-3 high-fatigue pec sessions a week for 6 months, grow a barrel-chest, then train wide-grip bench*, profit.

* Assuming no shoulder fuckery.

###

Really this thread could probably be titled: "The entirely intuitive and rational mechanical consequences of benching with small tits" (amirite fellas?)

I agree, for sure muscle size is a factor. This is further complicated by the fact that for some people the bench is not a very good pec builder. Especially the powerlifing style bench (hence the poverty bench epidemic in modern powerlifters). And if those people spent 6 months eating and blasting DB benching and flies at various angles their "optimal grip" could change by a lot.

Now it's mostly theoretical for me: just benching gave me a really big chest, and I'm not even good at benching.

[Hardartery]

Especially if it is just about selecting bench press grip: you have about 3 grips, just rotate between them each session and in a few months it'll be pretty clear which grip allows you to exert the most force.

I mostly agree, but if you're starting from a state of disproportionately weak/small pecs, changing your grip won't do much to change the [hand-wave] force-production ratios of pecs:triceps&front delts.

Or a [pec meat]/[tricep & delt meat].

I suspect if the folks with superior narrow grip bench took 6 months and made pec hypertrophy a goal (sans any comp benching), they'd probably see novel lifetime bench PRs using a wider grip within 3-4 months of reintroducing competition bench training.

A crude proxy for a good pec-hypertrophy session might be "ridiculous pec pump / burn / fatigue" (I suspect lots of our flat-chested friends have never experienced this sort of pec fatigue). Do 2-3 high-fatigue pec sessions a week for 6 months, grow a barrel-chest, then train wide-grip bench*, profit.

* Assuming no shoulder fuckery.

###

Really this thread could probably be titled: "The entirely intuitive and rational mechanical consequences of benching with small tits" (amirite fellas?)

I agree, for sure muscle size is a factor. This is further complicated by the fact that for some people the bench is not a very good pec builder. Especially the powerlifing style bench (hence the poverty bench epidemic in modern powerlifters). And if those people spent 6 months eating and blasting DB benching and flies at various angles their "optimal grip" could change by a lot.

Now it's mostly theoretical for me: just benching gave me a really big chest, and I'm not even good at benching.

I agree with both you and @Hanley that the lack of pec development in general is the big factor. Off the chest was never the issue or limiting factor for me with Bench, but I did shitloads of Flyes from various angles when I was in highschool. When I got the chance to go into a commercial gym and use a *holy grail* actual pec deck it was a huge disappointment because it was way too easy. That pec strength never left even with not doing any Flyes for 20 years. I've started them again now, more as a weighted stretch to help shoulder mobility but also because they make the titties swole and juicy, LOL. The PL trend was to ignore separate pec work because it wasn't important with a shirt. That's very much a Westside/Louie influence that modern lifters don't analyze. They look at PL training and copy what other guys have done or are doing without analyzing if that's really 100% applicable or why it was done that way. If I need 600 lbs on the bar to be able to PULL the bar down with my lats and make it touch, I'm not real worried about pec development I'm worried about how the hell to get that to lock out.

[janoycresva]

I mostly agree, but if you're starting from a state of disproportionately weak/small pecs, changing your grip won't do much to change the [hand-wave] force-production ratios of pecs:triceps&front delts.

Or a [pec meat]/[tricep & delt meat].

I suspect if the folks with superior narrow grip bench took 6 months and made pec hypertrophy a goal (sans any comp benching), they'd probably see novel lifetime bench PRs using a wider grip within 3-4 months of reintroducing competition bench training.

A crude proxy for a good pec-hypertrophy session might be "ridiculous pec pump / burn / fatigue" (I suspect lots of our flat-chested friends have never experienced this sort of pec fatigue). Do 2-3 high-fatigue pec sessions a week for 6 months, grow a barrel-chest, then train wide-grip bench*, profit.

* Assuming no shoulder fuckery.

###

Really this thread could probably be titled: "The entirely intuitive and rational mechanical consequences of benching with small tits" (amirite fellas?)

I think this makes sense too, I've done essentially 0 chest work outside of barbell bench pressing + close variations, and while my chest is decent aesthetically I think that might just be a consequence of good insertions/origins (there might not actually be that much mass there)

I suspect that the SFR of bench press just isn't that good for chest for lanklets, there's just so much ROM at the elbows that the triceps end up getting hammered more than anything

[Hanley]

I mostly agree, but if you're starting from a state of disproportionately weak/small pecs, changing your grip won't do much to change the [hand-wave] force-production ratios of pecs:triceps&front delts.

Or a [pec meat]/[tricep & delt meat].

I suspect if the folks with superior narrow grip bench took 6 months and made pec hypertrophy a goal (sans any comp benching), they'd probably see novel lifetime bench PRs using a wider grip within 3-4 months of reintroducing competition bench training.

A crude proxy for a good pec-hypertrophy session might be "ridiculous pec pump / burn / fatigue" (I suspect lots of our flat-chested friends have never experienced this sort of pec fatigue). Do 2-3 high-fatigue pec sessions a week for 6 months, grow a barrel-chest, then train wide-grip bench*, profit.

* Assuming no shoulder fuckery.

###

Really this thread could probably be titled: "The entirely intuitive and rational mechanical consequences of benching with small tits" (amirite fellas?)

I think this makes sense too, I've done essentially 0 chest work outside of barbell bench pressing + close variations, and while my chest is decent aesthetically I think that might just be a consequence of good insertions/origins (there might not actually be that much mass there)

I suspect that the SFR of bench press just isn't that good for chest for lanklets, there's just so much ROM at the elbows that the triceps end up getting hammered more than anything

You might try wide grip 1/2 ROM reps (very little elbow extension) fior shittons of reps at like 40-50% 1rm.

I've got long arms, and that's how I target/fatigue my pecs using a home gym setup. I can push my pecs to the point of spasm (with minimal tricep fatigue) doing this variation.

[janoycresva]

I mostly agree, but if you're starting from a state of disproportionately weak/small pecs, changing your grip won't do much to change the [hand-wave] force-production ratios of pecs:triceps&front delts.

Or a [pec meat]/[tricep & delt meat].

I suspect if the folks with superior narrow grip bench took 6 months and made pec hypertrophy a goal (sans any comp benching), they'd probably see novel lifetime bench PRs using a wider grip within 3-4 months of reintroducing competition bench training.

A crude proxy for a good pec-hypertrophy session might be "ridiculous pec pump / burn / fatigue" (I suspect lots of our flat-chested friends have never experienced this sort of pec fatigue). Do 2-3 high-fatigue pec sessions a week for 6 months, grow a barrel-chest, then train wide-grip bench*, profit.

* Assuming no shoulder fuckery.

###

Really this thread could probably be titled: "The entirely intuitive and rational mechanical consequences of benching with small tits" (amirite fellas?)

I think this makes sense too, I've done essentially 0 chest work outside of barbell bench pressing + close variations, and while my chest is decent aesthetically I think that might just be a consequence of good insertions/origins (there might not actually be that much mass there)

I suspect that the SFR of bench press just isn't that good for chest for lanklets, there's just so much ROM at the elbows that the triceps end up getting hammered more than anything

You might try wide grip 1/2 ROM reps (very little elbow extension) fior shittons of reps at like 40-50% 1rm.

I've got long arms, and that's how I target/fatigue my pecs using a home gym setup. I can push my pecs to the point of spasm (with minimal tricep fatigue) doing this variation.

I think between that and the adjustable DBs I just got (90lb powerblock set) I have some good options for chest work next time I’m in a calorie surplus