Experiences on BBM Templates

[janoycresva]

Compound Lifts = awesome

Isolation Lifts = awesome

###

I'm hearing/intuiting (edit with enthusiasm):

rule-set 1) if your torso/femur ratio hugs normal, then you can probably get away with compound movements for hypertrophy of primary extensors.
rule-set 2) if your torso/femur ratio is (hand wave) not- freaky, but not-normal, do the compound movement, then some isolation work on primary extensors that aren't fatigued
rule set 3) if your torso/femur ratio is freaky, then do compound movement to high fatigue of of fatigue-bottle-necked extensors, then whack the fuck out of under-stimulated extensor groups with isolation movements?

^ difference between 2 & 3 is proportion of compound/isolation

exactly what I’m doing now

Is it.....working?

maybe? my quads look slightly bigger and my squat has yet to implode

i’m a genetic dead end that’s been lifting for over a decade so i’m not the best barometer for what works, the signal to noise ratio is not great

[FredM]

I ran their original 3 day/week hypertrophy program and made no progress (actually detrained on squat), ran 12 week strength twice and gained some marginal bench and squat strength but absolutely torpedoed my deadlift (like 50lb transient suppression in 1rm with about 30lb of that coming back after a deload)

in terms of effort to reward it was probably the single worst run of training I have ever done, not very impressed with their spreadsheet design either

Yeah, BBM remains the most time intensive, "hardest" blocks I've ever done -- and generally involve way too much lower back fatigue for me to make any progress on squat/pull and not enough upper body volume to make much progress on upper body.

The risk+effort/reward ratio is at least 10x higher than anything else I've tried other than my last 2-3 weeks of SSNLP.

That said, the 3-day hypertrophy and endurance templates buck this trend somewhat (at least in terms of time and effort) and with minor tweaks worked ok for me -- especially on a cut. I'll probably rerun both of those on my next cut with their app since I already own them but I definitely wouldn't purchase more templates from them in the future (my other examples are 12 week press, HLM, and Bridge).

On the "low bar sucks for quads" argument, I used to agree with that, but then I learned to squat deep. After months of prying goblet squat warmups, fixing my tight hip flexors, and learning to squat with more Ed Coan-eske cues, deep low bar squats give me just as bad quad doms as SSB or leg press. In fairness though I'm exceedingly average in every way when it comes to lifting (genetics, strength, bone length/proportions) so similar fixes may not help you.

That said, I think most people (if not all) would benefit from spine-free leg work in base building blocks. Your legs can adapt to increasing loads a lot faster than your spine can and my guess (from reading a lot and injuring my own spine) is that the majority of back injuries in lifters are from failure to build the load/tissue tolerance because it takes more time (longer ramp up) than most every other part of your body. Especially after layoffs where you might be strong enough to pull/squat that volume no problem but your spine isn't adapted for it yet.

[janoycresva]

On the "low bar sucks for quads" argument, I used to agree with that, but then I learned to squat deep. After months of prying goblet squat warmups, fixing my tight hip flexors, and learning to squat with more Ed Coan-eske cues, deep low bar squats give me just as bad quad doms as SSB or leg press. In fairness though I'm exceedingly average in every way when it comes to lifting (genetics, strength, bone length/proportions) so similar fixes may not help you.

That said, I think most people (if not all) would benefit from spine-free leg work in base building blocks. Your legs can adapt to increasing loads a lot faster than your spine can and my guess (from reading a lot and injuring my own spine) is that the majority of back injuries in lifters are from failure to build the load/tissue tolerance because it takes more time (longer ramp up) than most every other part of your body. Especially after layoffs where you might be strong enough to pull/squat that volume no problem but your spine isn't adapted for it yet.

I wouldn't know about low bar really, I have never done it successfully for more than a few weeks. All my squatting experience is highbar (most of my lifting career) and SSB (last two years or so), and those two definitely feel very back/hip extension dominant to me even if I push my quads forward as much as possible and really go into my knees. I definitely feel more tension in the quads squatting that way, but the failure mode is consistently just folding over or my form completely disintegrating due to fatigue, and the soreness pattern is still reliably more adductors and low back than anything else.

Oddly enough, SSB seems even more back-oriented for me than highbar, even though a lot of people on here have the opposite experience and say it fatigues their back less. I understand thoracic erector demands being higher for the SSB, but it seems like erector demand in general is higher for me, I don't even feel my erectors on high rep deadlifts the way I do on volume SSB work.

[DanCR]

On the "low bar sucks for quads" argument, I used to agree with that, but then I learned to squat deep. After months of prying goblet squat warmups, fixing my tight hip flexors, and learning to squat with more Ed Coan-eske cues, deep low bar squats give me just as bad quad doms as SSB or leg press. In fairness though I'm exceedingly average in every way when it comes to lifting (genetics, strength, bone length/proportions) so similar fixes may not help you.

I think the idea that low bar sucks for quads comes from folks who take “hips back” too far or otherwise squat through their heels. Once you realize it’s actually not an entirely different movement from a high bar squat (h/t Juggernaut), suddenly there are your quads.

I wouldn't know about low bar really, I have never done it successfully for more than a few weeks. All my squatting experience is highbar (most of my lifting career) and SSB (last two years or so), and those two definitely feel very back/hip extension dominant to me even if I push my quads forward as much as possible and really go into my knees. I definitely feel more tension in the quads squatting that way, but the failure mode is consistently just folding over or my form completely disintegrating due to fatigue, and the soreness pattern is still reliably more adductors and low back than anything else.

I really would like to see a video of your high bar squat. This sounds odd.

[Allentown]

Yeah, BBM remains the most time intensive, "hardest" blocks I've ever done -- and generally involve way too much lower back fatigue for me to make any progress on squat/pull and not enough upper body volume to make much progress on upper body.

The risk+effort/reward ratio is at least 10x higher than anything else I've tried other than my last 2-3 weeks of SSNLP.

I'll caveat that I have only seen the current one I am running, the new Powerbuilding III, but with the exception of GPP Day 2, and this past Thursday when I accidentally doubled my BGSS weight because of my own confusing record-keeping and 5AM brain fog, every session has been pretty easy. I'm cutting, so I don't expect gainzZz, but in terms of difficulty it's probably been the easiest programming I have done so far. Also, only on week 4, so that might change too.

[janoycresva]

Yeah, BBM remains the most time intensive, "hardest" blocks I've ever done -- and generally involve way too much lower back fatigue for me to make any progress on squat/pull and not enough upper body volume to make much progress on upper body.

The risk+effort/reward ratio is at least 10x higher than anything else I've tried other than my last 2-3 weeks of SSNLP.

I'll caveat that I have only seen the current one I am running, the new Powerbuilding III, but with the exception of GPP Day 2, and this past Thursday when I accidentally doubled my BGSS weight because of my own confusing record-keeping and 5AM brain fog, every session has been pretty easy. I'm cutting, so I don't expect gainzZz, but in terms of difficulty it's probably been the easiest programming I have done so far. Also, only on week 4, so that might change too.

Their new programming seems much more reasonable. I’m sure people with less than stellar recovery ability getting beaten up by their early templates was something they saw in their feedback.

[SnakePlissken]

I think the idea that low bar sucks for quads comes from folks who take “hips back” too far or otherwise squat through their heels. Once you realize it’s actually not an entirely different movement from a high bar squat (h/t Juggernaut), suddenly there are your quads.

I think the other problem is that Low Bar isn't a fixed form for everyone. I like lowbar much more than high bar, but since I have a short torso and long legs, I like to keep my chest upright (I don't do nipples to the floor at the bottom) and I let my knees go further forward. The Low Bar on my back is just because I have a messed up collar bone that doesn't like a bar smashing it, but it's more of a hybrid style between Hi and Low bar.

Back when I squatted rippetoe style, I never really felt my quads being used much and my max attempts relied on setting my hips back really far to take the load off my quads.

[DanCR]

I think the idea that low bar sucks for quads comes from folks who take “hips back” too far or otherwise squat through their heels. Once you realize it’s actually not an entirely different movement from a high bar squat (h/t Juggernaut), suddenly there are your quads.

I think the other problem is that Low Bar isn't a fixed form for everyone. I like lowbar much more than high bar, but since I have a short torso and long legs, I like to keep my chest upright (I don't do nipples to the floor at the bottom) and I let my knees go further forward. The Low Bar on my back is just because I have a messed up collar bone that doesn't like a bar smashing it, but it's more of a hybrid style between Hi and Low bar.

Back when I squatted rippetoe style, I never really felt my quads being used much and my max attempts relied on setting my hips back really far to take the load off my quads.

The large majority of folks would be far better off if their low bar instruction was limited to, “Move the bar down on your back about two inches. Get tight. Now squat.”

[cole]

I just started my 3rd attempt of BBM templates this Monday, with BBM Strength III. Ive ran BBM Strength I for 8 of the 12 weeks, then bailed due to fatigue. Earlier this year I tried doing Strength III and blew myself out bad ie: double hip tendonitis, biceps tendonitis or some shoulder thing, general fatigue...I do think its user error in that I get really motivated and try pushing too hard early on, usually PR something after 3-4 weeks but then go completely down hill after that. The reality is, hitting a single @8 and following up with a set of 5 @ 9 plus 5 more back of sets -10% is bonkers. So, you have to adjust your RPE, be conservative, and possibly lower back off sets (% or rpe) to something that is more individualized. I think thats the hallmark of all templates, you must customize it to some extent or you run the risk of burnout.

I think BBM has taken a lot from RTS and their templates/training styles are similar. They are not easy and are high volume. Run as intended they will blow your asshole out but if you can hold back the reins I think you can make great progress for 8-12 weeks, at least I hope so bc Im 13 weeks out from competition and on week 1 of 13 on Strength III. Hope it works this time. If it doesnt Im just going to self program for the rest of father time.

[Allentown]

On week 6, and learning to actually read the templates (which is kind of hard, thanks Google Docs). Have repeated volume from a previous week more than once when the program said to increase it but I didn't notice it said "5 sets" that week instead of 4 like the previous week, for example.

Also, not doing the 2x HIIT and 2x LISS with the GPP because I don't have enough time, just doing them 1x each.

[janoycresva]

I think BBM has taken a lot from RTS and their templates/training styles are similar. They are not easy and are high volume. Run as intended they will blow your asshole out but if you can hold back the reins I think you can make great progress for 8-12 weeks, at least I hope so bc Im 13 weeks out from competition and on week 1 of 13 on Strength III. Hope it works this time. If it doesnt Im just going to self program for the rest of father time.

I think their earlier templates were especially brutal, the original 12 week strength pushed my shit in both times around week 8-9, just could not train productively with that amount of low back fatigue

my @8 on deadlift dropped 50lbs and I just decided fuck it, what’s the point anymore

[FredM]

I think BBM has taken a lot from RTS and their templates/training styles are similar. They are not easy and are high volume. Run as intended they will blow your asshole out but if you can hold back the reins I think you can make great progress for 8-12 weeks, at least I hope so bc Im 13 weeks out from competition and on week 1 of 13 on Strength III. Hope it works this time. If it doesnt Im just going to self program for the rest of father time.

I think their earlier templates were especially brutal, the original 12 week strength pushed my shit in both times around week 8-9, just could not train productively with that amount of low back fatigue

my @8 on deadlift dropped 50lbs and I just decided fuck it, what’s the point anymore

I originally thought I added 50 lbs to my pull on the Bridge but now I'm smarter and realize 345x5@10 to ruined any chance I had of pulling 355 off the ground less than a week later. End of Bridge I pulled 400 which was the only lift I saw any "progress" on. Which seems crazy because the pulling volume on that was insane compared to anything else. I spend barely more time in my entire workout than I did just on lower body on that program. It was taking me almost 2 hours MWF, and 40 min TTh. I don't know why I gave BBM so many chances after that but as a father of 2 now I definitely don't have time to be that inefficient.

[ChasingCurls69]

I think BBM has taken a lot from RTS and their templates/training styles are similar. They are not easy and are high volume. Run as intended they will blow your asshole out but if you can hold back the reins I think you can make great progress for 8-12 weeks, at least I hope so bc Im 13 weeks out from competition and on week 1 of 13 on Strength III. Hope it works this time. If it doesnt Im just going to self program for the rest of father time.

I think their earlier templates were especially brutal, the original 12 week strength pushed my shit in both times around week 8-9, just could not train productively with that amount of low back fatigue

my @8 on deadlift dropped 50lbs and I just decided fuck it, what’s the point anymore

I think they were particularly brutal, and one of the first things I changed from them in my own programming was just drop the RPE by 1-2, especially on the set after a 1@8.

LISF/MISF programs are massive improvement over the original 12-week strength, and Powerbuilding III is a huge improvement over the 12-week hypertrophy and original powerbuilding I/II when it comes to the intensity.

[Allentown]

On the last block of Powerbuilding III.
No arm work at all? For 4 weeks? No ab work? No lat work? No GPP at all?
I get that it's the peak block for the "power" part of "powerbuilding" but I'm looking for more biceps peak and less squat 1RM peak.
One of my goals was to actually follow a program, and I don't want to bail after 10 weeks, but...

[James]

Do some curls anyway. What's Jordan going to do about it?

[janoycresva]

Do some curls anyway. What's Jordan going to do about it?

What are you going to do, not curl?

[Allentown]

Do some curls anyway. What's Jordan going to do about it?

One of my goals for the year was to actually follow a program as written.

[Grewester]

IMHO, BBM templates are horribly boring and ground me into a paste. I ran the original 12 week Strength, 3 and 4 day Hypertrophy and Powerbuilding 2. The original 12 week strength was by far the most brutal. The sessions were typically over 2 hours long even with timed rest periods, and I absolutely hated doing heavy deadlifts the day after heavy squats. My low back could never adjust, and by about the 4th week I was begging for a deload. I was a single dude in college at the time, life stress was pretty low overall and the program still buried me. The templates made me absolutely dread training, because I knew each session would be a marathon, I was fatigued as hell, and the thought of doing tempo squats and a 3 count pause bench was fucking agonizing.

That said, I do like the BBM crew and the contributions they’ve made to the lifting community. I just don’t jive with their training style.

[OrderInChaos]

IMHO, BBM templates are horribly boring and ground me into a paste. I ran the original 12 week Strength, 3 and 4 day Hypertrophy and Powerbuilding 2. The original 12 week strength was by far the most brutal. The sessions were typically over 2 hours long even with timed rest periods, and I absolutely hated doing heavy deadlifts the day after heavy squats. My low back could never adjust, and by about the 4th week I was begging for a deload. I was a single dude in college at the time, life stress was pretty low overall and the program still buried me. The templates made me absolutely dread training, because I knew each session would be a marathon, I was fatigued as hell, and the thought of doing tempo squats and a 3 count pause bench was fucking agonizing.

That said, I do like the BBM crew and the contributions they’ve made to the lifting community. I just don’t jive with their training style.

You’d probably like the way Austin has his personal training set up lately. It’s hiding somewhere in a recent thread here. More focused on singles and low fatigue follow on work, with added accessories of non barbell variety.

I’m with you on the templates. The endurance one isn’t hyper sophisticated but is where I had best success.

[KOTJ]

@Grewester regarding the Hypertrophy and Powerbuilding templates, what were the measurable or visible differences for your physique at start and finish?

Is cardio on GPP days scheduled prior to lifting? Those template descriptions seem fairly similar.

Just curious. Years ago I hired Jordan for nutrition and programming; I was disappointed with the programming coaching, but nutrition was ok. I hired Austin because he's more attentive and invested in lifter outcomes, and I had long running back issues, and was primarily trying to clear my stupid impulses. I eventually just went back to my own stuff, since the issues appeared to be caused/aggravated by conventional deadlifts (since then I've also removed low bar squats, becaus even low intensity and/or moderate volume aggravates the same part of my back).

If you want to hire a BBM coach for programming, my money would be with Austin.

If your focus is more on powerbuilding, I'd try one of the Renaissance Periodization physique templates. I have never used them, but their content and their direct experience and specialization with physique focuses is greater.