ROM measuring strength sport?

[CB55]

Hey everyone, this is my first post here.

After following powerlifting for a long time, and being into general strength training, I've started to wonder why no one has tried to create a similar sport that includes ROM in the scoring. It seems like with modern technology it wouldn't be difficult find a way to measure the distance travelled over a lift and then use ROM x Weight as a score. Are their any glaring oversights I'm missing as to why this wouldn't work? The most obvious thing that comes to mind is upper body being devalued by being the least ROM and the least weight.

The positives that I can think of are:

1) Range of motion on bench and sumo dead issues going away.

2) People of different heights competing at the same weight class. Something like MMA where there is a strength vs reach spectrum. This would encourage people to be lean and tall, which would help viewership and participation in the sport. This might also make live events more interesting because people wouldn't know the ROM score until it's revealed.

3) Using the most weight over the longest ROM tends to be best for general strength and bodybuilding. Most people are lifting for those reasons to begin and then have to take a weird turn into cutting ROM to compete in powerlifting.

Am I fooling in thinking this has potential? It seems crazy to me that no one's tried it yet. If it caught on I could see people viewing modern raw powerlifting the way we now view equipped lifting (doing whatever to move the most weight, surely impressive but with less relation to real world strength.)

Moving the most weight over the longest distance just seems cooler than moving the most weight over the shortest distance

[MarkKO]

Hey everyone, this is my first post here.

After following powerlifting for a long time, and being into general strength training, I've started to wonder why no one has tried to create a similar sport that includes ROM in the scoring. It seems like with modern technology it wouldn't be difficult find a way to measure the distance travelled over a lift and then use ROM x Weight as a score. Are their any glaring oversights I'm missing as to why this wouldn't work? The most obvious thing that comes to mind is upper body being devalued by being the least ROM and the least weight.

The positives that I can think of are:

1) Range of motion on bench and sumo dead issues going away.

This isn't an issue. It's only an issue for people who think it's cheating, who generally don't matter because most of them aren't in the sport. The majority of powerlifters who last in the sport are more concerned about maximising their total than whether their opponents have smaller ROM. If anything, they try to make their ROM the smallest so that they derive a greater advantage. However, it is very rare for someone to find such a reduced ROM to be beneficial relative to gaining greater muscle mass or improving technique.

2) People of different heights competing at the same weight class. Something like MMA where there is a strength vs reach spectrum. This would encourage people to be lean and tall, which would help viewership and participation in the sport. This might also make live events more interesting because people wouldn't know the ROM score until it's revealed.

After a while, most people end up in the weight class that lets them be the most muscular. This means that within the same weight class, most people who have been competing for a while are similar in height. Again, this doesn't really apply to people who compete for a year or two and then quit. Encouraging people to be lean and tall doesn't work, because no matter how encouraging you are I can't be taller than five foot nine. I can definitely be leaner, but that's what anyone eventually ends up doing because you want to be as muscular within your class as possible. Which means being reasonably lean. Encouraging only tall and lean people to compete in powerlifting would also not increase participation because it presents a barrier: height. There is currently no barrier, you just find whatever weight class you will be most competitive in. Outside of the 308s ans SHWs most people who stay in the sport and improve end up relatively lean and muscular simply because that makes them more competitive.

3) Using the most weight over the longest ROM tends to be best for general strength and bodybuilding. Most people are lifting for those reasons to begin and then have to take a weird turn into cutting ROM to compete in powerlifting.

Powerlifting has never been about general strength and bodybuilding, in the same way that boxing has never been about fitness or wrestling about flexibility. Sports are about winning, and you do what you can to achieve that. Within the rules and even outside them. Powerlifters also fairly regularly employ extended ROM techniques in training already for the precise benefits you outlined.

Am I fooling in thinking this has potential? It seems crazy to me that no one's tried it yet. If it caught on I could see people viewing modern raw powerlifting the way we now view equipped lifting (doing whatever to move the most weight, surely impressive but with less relation to real world strength.)

Moving the most weight over the longest distance just seems cooler than moving the most weight over the shortest distance

From the perspective of someone who has been in the sport for seven years already, yes, this seems a ridiculous suggestion. Powerlifting has never been about real world strength. That's what strongman is for. Powerlifters are like weightlifters, good at a very small number of specific lifts completed according to arbitrary rules.

What may be worth noting is that this idea of longer ROM being somehow better in terms of achievement seems to frequently be held by people who aren't actually powerlifters, or are inexperienced powerlifters. This isn't intended as a dig at anyone, it's just something I have observed. Very often more experienced powerlifters are largely unconcerned about their opponent's ROM. I certainly know from my own personal experience, I have never been beaten by someone because they were able to cut their ROM shorter than mine. I have, however, lost on a number of occasions to people who are stronger, have better technical ability, have more muscle mass at the same bodyweight or a combination of the three. I can say with complete assurance that I have never looked across a warmup room and thought, oh shit that guy has such short ROM he's going to destroy me. I have, however, quite often thought, oh shit that guy is so much more jacked than I am, he's probably going to outlift me. Hell, I've had a guy in a meet compliment me on my arch and then proceed to out-bench me to the tune of 100 lbs. He wasn't close to elite either. I've also soundly outsquatted guys in the same weight class who do everything they can to shorten their squat while I generally sink mine simply because I that's how I squat comfortably.

[mgil]

It’s been said before, but at the most elite levels, weight classes become height classes.

Normalizing all of these things by work or power would make the largest difference at the novice levels. Assuming this is done, now the burden of judging with precision (this feels like an oxymoron) falls upon the people judging the least competitive population in the sport.

The intent is understood and well intended, but in the end you’re gaining precision where none is warranted and within the ranks of elite lifters, a lot of these metrics are convergent.

[augeleven]

Welcome to the forum!

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/shoul ... l-or-sumo/

In the section about ROM, Nuckols makes an argument that you don’t need to be equally stronger through the entire ROM, just strong enough to pass through your weakest part of the rom.

ETA - he’s not a power lifter, but Thor’s 501kg deadlift had crazy ROM

[asdf]

Moving the most weight over the longest distance just seems cooler than moving the most weight over the shortest distance

Deadlifting 500# x 22" seems cooler to me than deadlifting 400# x 28" (assuming both lifters achieve full lockout).

Welcome to the forum!

[CB55]

Encouraging only tall and lean people to compete in powerlifting would also not increase participation because it presents a barrier: height. There is currently no barrier, you just find whatever weight class you will be most competitive in. Outside of the 308s ans SHWs most people who stay in the sport and improve end up relatively lean and muscular simply because that makes them more competitive.

I think more people would participate if strength and reach operated on a spectrum they way they do in MMA. Right now it's a barrier that shortness is an advantage with nothing mitigating it, the same way that tallness is an advantage in basketball and everyone ends up being tall. The answer in powerlifting is for taller people to just gain weight, but this is another barrier that a lot of people won't want to do. I think this is keeping people out of powerlifting, and the people that are being kept out are the tall thin Wheaties box athletic types that are stars in every other sport.

Powerlifting has never been about real world strength. That's what strongman is for. Powerlifters are like weightlifters, good at a very small number of specific lifts completed according to arbitrary rules.

Wouldn't ROM measured competition be a bit closer to real world strength? People don't want to workout for general strength with barbells then have to switch to a bunch of different lifts and equipment to compete in strongman

[Wilhelm]

The variety in competitors is part of the spice.

When a short guy gets inside on a tall fighter, takes away his kicking advantage, and starts ripping him to the body and head, that's fun to watch.

When Spud Webb dunked, people went crazy over it.

[Hardartery]

Hey everyone, this is my first post here.

After following powerlifting for a long time, and being into general strength training, I've started to wonder why no one has tried to create a similar sport that includes ROM in the scoring. It seems like with modern technology it wouldn't be difficult find a way to measure the distance travelled over a lift and then use ROM x Weight as a score. Are their any glaring oversights I'm missing as to why this wouldn't work? The most obvious thing that comes to mind is upper body being devalued by being the least ROM and the least weight.

2) People of different heights competing at the same weight class. Something like MMA where there is a strength vs reach spectrum. This would encourage people to be lean and tall, which would help viewership and participation in the sport. This might also make live events more interesting because people wouldn't know the ROM score until it's revealed.

3) Using the most weight over the longest ROM tends to be best for general strength and bodybuilding. Most people are lifting for those reasons to begin and then have to take a weird turn into cutting ROM to compete in powerlifting.

Moving the most weight over the longest distance just seems cooler than moving the most weight over the shortest distance

You may be familiar with the expression "People go to the circus to see the elephants". That's why Strongman is more popular than Powerlifting. People want to see the freaks, and they like to see the incredibly huge guy lift something ridiculous. No one knows or cares about ROM, really. There is no excitement in watching a guy lock out a lift and not know whether or not to celebrate, because maybe his ROM stats will mean it doesn't win anything. The excitement is in watching and KNOWING by using your own eyes if he got it or not. You don't want the Superbowl to come down to who had to gain the most yards to score, you just care about the score. The problem with O-lifting and PLing are that they are too technical and hard to follow for the average guy. You watch and try to figure why the lifter didn't get the lights but got the lift locked - because of some technical nuance that the average spectator won't pick up on. Simple is better. There's the weight, pick it up or don't, we don't care how you made it happen we just wanna watch you do that crazy thing.

[5hout]

Can us shorties not have 1 sport? Seriously, practically every other sport has a must be 5'10 to ride sign on it. Must we rebuild powerlifting to favor tall skinny people? As a 5'7 chunky person I was overjoyed when I found out being this height with naturally big legs was actually a benefit.

[zappey1]

I would be happy if PL had replays to dispute questionable calls. I feel like it would be pretty easy to do. Have cameras set up at the 3 judge positions. They could slow down and pause disputed calls. Heck 1 judge could probably handle all the calls by reviewing the footage.

Really they could probably automate most of the calls with analytic software. Then just have a head judge review red light footage.

I have always been upset about all the bad/ no calls I have seen in PL meets. I feel it would lend more credibility to the sport by making judging more consistent.

[MarkKO]

Encouraging only tall and lean people to compete in powerlifting would also not increase participation because it presents a barrier: height. There is currently no barrier, you just find whatever weight class you will be most competitive in. Outside of the 308s ans SHWs most people who stay in the sport and improve end up relatively lean and muscular simply because that makes them more competitive.

I think more people would participate if strength and reach operated on a spectrum they way they do in MMA. Right now it's a barrier that shortness is an advantage with nothing mitigating it, the same way that tallness is an advantage in basketball and everyone ends up being tall. The answer in powerlifting is for taller people to just gain weight, but this is another barrier that a lot of people won't want to do. I think this is keeping people out of powerlifting, and the people that are being kept out are the tall thin Wheaties box athletic types that are stars in every other sport.

Powerlifting has never been about real world strength. That's what strongman is for. Powerlifters are like weightlifters, good at a very small number of specific lifts completed according to arbitrary rules.

Wouldn't ROM measured competition be a bit closer to real world strength? People don't want to workout for general strength with barbells then have to switch to a bunch of different lifts and equipment to compete in strongman

Have you realised that people who work out for general strength have no interest in powerlifting? Nor strongman or weightlifting. Vice versa, powerlifters tend not to care how strong they are outside the competition lifts unless that strength transfers to them. Realistically, powerlifters have pretty good real world strength. Not as much as strongmen, but it's definitely decent. They can both lift and move heavy things that the average Joe can't. I'm not sure what else real world strength is.

I also seriously question the assertion that tall, thin people are the stars in every other sport. NFL? They'd break. The rugby codes? Also break. There are tall people in both, and they are BIG. There are also short people. Generally no thin ones. Gymnastics? They don't seem very tall. And the guys are jacked AF. Fighting sports? Last time I watched any there was a huge variety of body types and shapes, all of them very good. Soccer? From memory some are short, some are tall. They are thin though, I'll give them that. Swimmers are often tall I think, but also seem pretty muscular.

As far as I can tell, being thin is often a disadvantage in any sport where you need any degree of physical strength. I recall hearing Michael Jordan talk about deliberately getting a bit bigger so he would be harder to push around. Being tall is just being tall, some sports favour it, some don't and some it doesn't matter because there are various roles that require different characteristics.

[CB55]

Have you realised that people who work out for general strength have no interest in powerlifting? Nor strongman or weightlifting

I agree with you. Strongman and weightlifting are too different in their goals/equipment/need for coaching than general strength training so I'm going to use powerlifting as the comparison. I think a ROM measuring version of powerlifting would appeal to more people than regular powerlifting does because it would closer resemble how they're already working out for general strength and aesthetics, and it would include taller thinner people along with shorter thicker people. Seeing who can do the most work in a given lift compared to people of the same weight is a simple thing to understand. If people wanted to go sumo, they'd only do it if it added enough pounds to their lift to justify the shorter ROM. It would reflect what people in the gym already naturally find impressive, before being told that 500lbs moved 5 inches is the same value as 500lbs moved 20 inches.

[MarkKO]

Have you realised that people who work out for general strength have no interest in powerlifting? Nor strongman or weightlifting

I agree with you. Strongman and weightlifting are too different in their goals/equipment/need for coaching than general strength training so I'm going to use powerlifting as the comparison. I think a ROM measuring version of powerlifting would appeal to more people than regular powerlifting does because it would closer resemble how they're already working out for general strength and aesthetics, and it would include taller thinner people along with shorter thicker people. Seeing who can do the most work in a given lift compared to people of the same weight is a simple thing to understand. If people wanted to go sumo, they'd only do it if it added enough pounds to their lift to justify the shorter ROM. It would reflect what people in the gym already naturally find impressive, before being told that 500lbs moved 5 inches is the same value as 500lbs moved 20 inches.

The theory I get. However, powerlifting is incredibly boring to watch no matter how much you love it. I doubt anything could make it more watchable without completely changing it. That's why strongman is a better spectacle.

ROM measurement would also likely make it much more difficult to train for and compete in powerlifting. It would also likely reduce your ability to improve because your ROM would determine your total to a large part. You'd end up seeing people find ways to increase their ROM, and chances this would mean more injuries. We have enough of those already.

And again, people in the gym don't matter in the slightest to powerlifting. People who want to compete, will compete. General gym population aren't needed by the sport.

[psmith]

You know where the weight moves really far?

Highland Games

think about it

[51M0N]

No way does adding in ROM make powerlifting more interesting to the average person. If anything it would make it even worse to watch, who want to see the guy who squats 370kg lose to the guy who squats 350 but did it with 2" more ROM.

[MarkKO]

No way does adding in ROM make powerlifting more interesting to the average person. If anything it would make it even worse to watch, who want to see the guy who squats 370kg lose to the guy who squats 350 but did it with 2" more ROM.

This

Making powerlifting worse to watch is an achievement in itself and I'm a powerlifter saying that.