Are Weightlifters better squatters than Powerlifters?

[Kregna]

Both are very different sports but both have some seriously strong squatters

You can't help but see good WLers putting up some serious numbers on the squat (and high bar squats at that)

I could be wrong (so correct me if that's the case) but the training of that lift is very different:

WL - high frequency (1-2 times a day for elite level), high bar. Lots of front squatting and cleaning (includes a front squat). I would wager WLers get a lot more volume in.

PL - much lower frequency (1-3 times a week), low bar. A lot of the top guys use splits (again, correct me if I'm wrong) where they squat once or twice a week.

It could easily be that I'm seeing the select few heavy squatters in the WL community and that as-strong-PLers are far more numerous but just don't stand out as much. PL obviously includes squats as a contested lift, and WL does not. PLers are the ones holding the squat records. But would this change if the serious weightlifters were incentivised to go low bar and go for 1RMs?

I also appreciate the Olympics includes only WL, and therefore probably draws higher calibre athletes as governments will push their best lifters to Olympic weightlifting. So this would also skew the stats (e.g. China obviously prioritisation WLing. If those same athletes were pushed into powerlifting, would that mean a greater pool of potential record setters in PLing?)

Pls discuss

[Kregna]

Regarding training:

Since WLing produces such strong squatters (assuming my previous post & assumptions weren't nonsense),why do PLers train with much less frequency? Is the 1-2 a day squatting too much for those also deadlifting (which is more taxing than the Olympic lifts)? Or could PLers benefit from squatting every day?

Again, assuming my assumptions are correct lol

[mettkeks]

The are many discussions on these super high frequency squatting routines and it generally boils down to either drugs (Bulgarians), and/or having a pool of 1mio. athletes trained since they're 5 y.o. and see who survives these routines, so you can choose them for your olympic team (chinese).
Then you could search for the heaviest squats done by WL by absolute weight and find videos of squats in the 350-380kg range. You could also find a video of Powerlifter Jezza Uepa front squatting 400kg.

Yes, you could compare the lower weightclasses to powerlifting, but then you compare recruited state-funded superathletes squatting since 15 years by the age of 20 with the perfect build and genetics to squat to guys in their mid 20's training since their late teens in normal gyms.

And how is this relevant for anyone? Elite WL routines don't work that well in powerlifting, Powelifters are not worse squatters, gen. pop. will die on those routines, and if you really wan't to compare strength of either athlete, have them do strongman competitions.

Discläimer: I'm not strong, don't care for powerlifting or weightlifting, and I don't even squat.

[Testiclaw]

The squatting done by weightlifters is done for specific reasons, namely posture and knee-extension/leg strength. A powerlifter will squat solely to strengthen whatever movement will follow the requirements for their given federation, and it doesn't necessarily matter how.

Because of that, the two movements are very, very different, and it's hard to compare the two.

I think a more apt question would be, "Who has stronger legs?", and the weightlifter would win that simply because their sport revolves around knee-extension, primarily.

You have to remember that the phases a weightlifter goes through for squatting vary much more than the phases for powerlifting. Powerlifters are concerned about strength, and weightlifters are concerned about power, and how each sport trains their squats reflects this. And, the squat is a contested movement for powerlifting, as you already mentioned, but ONLY a means to an end for weightlifting.

why do PLers train with much less frequency?

It has a lot to do with patterning and power. But more and more strength and powerlifter routines are increasing the frequency of the SBD, especially the squat, and some coaches have been doing higher frequency for decades (Sheiko comes to mind). But I believe the difference in programming can account for a lot of the variation between sports.

During an off-season/strength block for weightlifting you might only squat twice a week, with a lot of the higher volume you'd typically see in a powerlifting plan. But as the weightlifter gets closer to competition the goals shift:

-Increase power (build it from the increased strength of the development or preparation blocks)
-Increase technical mastery of the competition lifts
-Decay as much fatigue as possible while refining the skill of one-rep-max snatch and clean & jerks.

...Which can mean that squatting becomes very frequent (every training session), but only as a way to drive power in the snatch and clean & jerk, and NOT as a way to increase the squat. You might see multiple sessions of three or four doubles in the 70-85% range in the front squat during competition cycles. For strength work that just doesn't cut it, but it's not done for strength or squat increases.

There's the one SHW (Finnish, I think? Or Danish?) who is in training hall videos squatting 400kg like it's absolutely nothing...but he isn't anywhere near the top for snatch and clean & jerk numbers. Strength is almost everything for powerlifting, but it's just a part of the picture for weightlifting.

"How can I keep the squatting motion (leg extension) crisp and fast and increase power without lumping an incredible amount of stress on a single session or day?"

That's a lot different than, "How can I keep increasing the strength of my squat, irrespective of the speed, crispness of movement, or grinding?"

Most of the work from weightlifting (in every movement) will be very sub-maximal because position refinement and technique are huge limiting factors for success on the platform, much more so than in powerlifting. Because of this all their movements (which all rely heavily on leg-extension) can be trained with relatively high frequency.

[Hawkpeter]

Most successful WLers, and then of them, the ones who come to mind with notable squat prowess, are of a build that take great advantage of shorter femurs, a more upright posture, and reps that decay far less so in terms of trunk angle. Often, there is very little time under tension, and failed reps don't take very long.

I think some of the 'better' is actually an aesthetic consideration to do with how reps decay for lifters such as this who utilize a stretch reflex and displace the bar a maximal physiological amplitude. However, the physiology and technique that provides for those squats doesn't make for the kind of deadlift output to be generally be competitive in powerlifting. We might be left to conclude that, specialists squatters of significant bar displacement and stretch reflex can train the movement with high frequency due to a minimization of time under tension. That cannot be carried over to deadlifting the way it can snatching and clean and jerking.

There are some interesting examples of cross over lifters. Interestingly, Chen Wei-Ling is more so known for her equipped WR squat of 210kg at 47kg, although she also holds the raw record as well. She is remarkable for the way that she accommodated an equipped technique to best utilize the suit, not just the qualities described above for when people usually think of weightlifters and their back squats.

If you look at Toshiki Yamamoto, he would likely claim the IPF raw squat record at 83kg BW having squatted 290 for a triple, barely missing a 4th rep as an 85kg lifter, as well as a 300kg single. Testiclaw above I think was referring to Mart Seim from Estonia who has squatted 400kg very assertively, 370x3 also benched 170kg for 12. Many people are well aware of squats from the likes of Idalberto Aranda who not only squatted 280 as a 77kg lifter but popped the bar up in the air, off his back, and over his head https://youtu.be/dyTJKWHja3g.

None of those guys were Olympic podium worthy but nonetheless very high level A session lifters, Aranda held a C&J WR at one point. OL requires sufficient squat output, not necessarily the best squat output.

[walterkurda]

... of course weightlifters are "better" squater than powerlifters. It is important to know, of course, that a weightlifter does not care at all about reaching his maximum potential in the squat. He just needs a certain amount of strength to achieve his goals in snatch and clean & jerk. So if you have a goal of 240 kg in jerk, you don't need to squat 400 kg ... in addition, weightlifters have much better general athletic skills. The mobility is much higher ...

[mbasic]

damn, we just had this debate (again) in the other thread because of rips recent click bait video.

Re-reading this now ...this is a goodie-thread for sure.

[MarkKO]

But of a bump for an old thread but it got me thinking - after I rolled my eyes and snorted at what a silly question it is. The question isn't silly, but the answers often are.

Firstly, what powerlifters are we talking about? Raw without wraps? With wraps? Equipped? If we're going to compare weightlifters to powerlifters meaningfully, we should only include powerlifters who squat bare knee or in sleeves, and on a power bar AND who walk their squats out. That's the population of powerlifters who squat in the same situation as weightlifters.

Second, if we're going to compare weightlifters and powerlifters we should only compare them in equivalent weight classes (or close weight classes, within 10 lbs or so of each other).

Third, we need to compare more than just the best of the elite. They are usually outliers anyway. The comparison would need to be across a much larger cohort, something like the top 100 in each weight class. Those are still elite, but it would be a larger sample.

Even doing all that it's also essential to remember that weightlifters are often professional athletes who are picked for that sport because they are the best at it. Powerlifters are almost always amateurs, and even the best are quite often not good enough athletes to have succeeded in better paid sports. This isn't a dig at powerlifters. It's just the truth. The traits that make a great powerlifter (strength and explosiveness) are in high demand in sports like the NHL, rugby and fighting to name a few. These ALL pay much better than powerlifting - which generally doesn't pay at all. So when comparing powerlifters to weightlifters we're often comparing a gifted athlete to a much, much less gifted athlete.

[mgil]

Even in lieu of excluding elite athletes from both areas, I think WLers would generally have better squats. Mainly because part of the training is technique driven and develops/reinforces proprioception.

Adding to that, and reflecting on an article @gnuckols wrote years back, I’m suspecting that both the upper back strength and shoulder mobility advantage a WLer would typically have allows for what looks like a better technical squat simply because they remain more vertical. Likely better ankle mobility helps here as well.

[dw]

"So when comparing powerlifters to weightlifters we're often comparing a gifted athlete to a much, much less gifted athlete."

I think this is actually the point the question is getting at rather than a flaw in the comparison.

[mgil]

It’s still true that the typical WLer is more gifted athletically than the typical PLer. However, I’d argue that the difference between the two has diminished some, at least in the USA. The ability to make money from side hustles has put the “professional” weightlifter and powerlifter at basically equal. Understood, that comparison has a strong caveat.

[MarkKO]

It’s still true that the typical WLer is more gifted athletically than the typical PLer. However, I’d argue that the difference between the two has diminished some, at least in the USA. The ability to make money from side hustles has put the “professional” weightlifter and powerlifter at basically equal. Understood, that comparison has a strong caveat.

This is a good point. It would be interesting to compare the squats of USAWL and USAPL lifters in equivalent classes; and then do the same in countries like the Koreas, China, Russia, Ukraine, etc.

[Boa]

In terms of technique and patterning? Weightlifters.

That's when we think about the Squat as an actual movement, and not as a means to express maximal strength. A lot of Weightlifters aren't particuarly good at grinding. I mean they could be, but they are training for a Power sport which requires them to constantly move things hard and fast, irrespective of the load on the bar. This is in contrast to Powerlifters, who regularly move heavy things, but aren't performing lifts or movements that require them to do these things fast or forcefully throughout (because all of them - bar Deadlift - begin with an eccentric).

In terms of maximal strength, Powerlifters obviously. There's some WLers out there who have come pretty close to Ray Williams levels of strong such as Reza (who was regularly working into the 400kgs) but as a general rule, they train to maximize performance in their sport, and lifting really heavy eccentric loaded stuff takes away from the time they can put into training Snatch and C&J. So you aren't going to find many of them taking time out to moonlight at a monolift.

That being said, the guys at the top in WL, are still pretty strong by most elite PL standards, so a 250kg Squat for reps in the sub 100kg classes might be run-of-the-mill auxiliary work for an elite WL.

[5hout]

That being said, the guys at the top in WL, are still pretty strong by most elite PL standards, so a 350kg Squat for reps in the sub 100kg classes might be run-of-the-mill auxiliary work for an elite WL.

I've got to push back on the idea that a 350kg/770lbs squat for reps is run-of-the-mill for an elite WL. That squat, with wraps, is a top 50 squat of all time for sub 220 lifters. Without wraps it's top 10 of all time, including non-tested feds. Doubling it in a e1rm calculator is well into ATWR range.

Maybe I'm just sad and broken at the moment, but I think a lot of this discussion is forgetting the normal distribution of totals/lifts/squats. Someone doubling 90% of a WR might be expected, in a comp, to do an ok bit more weight. Adding that last 10-30lbs on your squat, when you're doubling in the elite range is a lot, lot harder than in an advanced or intermediate range.

Not saying they aren't elite athletes or couldn't compete at PL, but with how hard it is to move the needle once you're already near full scale I think we should be heavily curving down expected squat increases. Also, a lot of them seem to be built the opposite of an ideal PL, so they might be closer to their max squat already.

[asdf]

This is relevant. Includes several comparisons to powerlifting world records.

[mbasic]

This is relevant. Includes several comparisons to powerlifting world records.

The shane hamman thing is interesting around the 2:00 mark

Heaviest squat filmed ever of a "weightlifter" (WL'er later on in life)?
...man, consider that was a long time ago too, and how easy filming and distribution of video is now.
What are the odds of that after all these years in the modern day?

But he was a run of the mill WL'er on the international scene (out totaled by 10% or so in World or Olympic competitions).

If you "reversed engineered" the top WL'er from around the world, either via time machine, or after their careers.
....and they solely focused on S/B/D, they'd likely be HUGE squatters (IDK if they would be great DL'ers tho).

[5hout]

Some impressive squats in that video, but I think it kind of confirmed (for me) my hypothesis that they are elite athletes and might be top 100 powerlifters if they switched, but not likely WR setters for powerlifting (apart from the ones that are actual powerlifters as well).

Example: Iranian 310 @ 85, raw, dbl bounce. This 3x reds. Guy says it's not world record level, but not far off and cites some old IPF record of 313. The current raw world record for the class below his body weight is 345, not 313.

The Kostova clip is pretty interesting, because it would be 2nd only to Gasparyan (and beating Stefi Cohen) for raw squats. This makes me think there is something else going on? Groove shorts or something else.

The rest of the non-competition clips are all good squats, but nothing that would come that close to setting WR or being particularly close, especially given the difference between squatting at home and only posting your successes vs going to a competition and doing it after weigh in.

[Cellist]

Interesting topic to speculate, but even elites benefit from specialisation. Someone pursuing the highest possible total is not going to be maxing squats and deadlifts. This was kinda covered over in Egypt quite a while ago, especially with regards to Shane Hamman. Rip takes the view that he would have fared much better internationally if he would have done heavy deadlift singles. I'm pretty sure anyone who has coached olympic lifting above the level of Rip would LOL. Hamman didn't start until he was in his 20s and Rip claims "they [Team USA] couldn't teach him to snatch" Of course he still holds the US record, but in other places they have elite talent that starts training technique much younger. The argument that talented American's go into Football also holds. Hamman, who grew up in Oklahoma was 400 lbs or close to it, but only 5'8", which is not just unusual, but less than ideal for that sport, so he stopped as a HS sophomore. DI Linemen, even nose guards and centers are at least 6 foot, right? So he enjoyed PL and pursued olympic lifting.

As far as SHW WL go, the GOAT Talakhadza, posted a snappy 300kg triple on IG today. According to the interview, which I find embarrassing as Rip just uses it to make his point about the DL, Hamman was pulling like 260 or 280 for doubles or triples, but wasn't training the "slow" version of the DL going up to the games. Rip gave him the wide-eyed stare. His opinion is that olympic lifters spend too much time on skill acquisition and not enough on low bar squats and heavy deadlifts.

But with squats, there was a post with some dope about how Hamman's opponent Rezazedah stopped training his squat when he got to 400kg, so when Hamman was competing, his squat was probably above all others.

https://startingstrength.com/resources/ ... fting.html

[Boa]

That being said, the guys at the top in WL, are still pretty strong by most elite PL standards, so a 350kg Squat for reps in the sub 100kg classes might be run-of-the-mill auxiliary work for an elite WL.

I've got to push back on the idea that a 350kg/770lbs squat for reps is run-of-the-mill for an elite WL. That squat, with wraps, is a top 50 squat of all time for sub 220 lifters. Without wraps it's top 10 of all time, including non-tested feds. Doubling it in a e1rm calculator is well into ATWR range.

My bad, that's a typo and lack of proof-reading. I meant 250kg! Which done for sets and reps, isn't exactly normal practice in the sub 100kg classes outside of peaks.

[5hout]

That being said, the guys at the top in WL, are still pretty strong by most elite PL standards, so a 350kg Squat for reps in the sub 100kg classes might be run-of-the-mill auxiliary work for an elite WL.

I've got to push back on the idea that a 350kg/770lbs squat for reps is run-of-the-mill for an elite WL. That squat, with wraps, is a top 50 squat of all time for sub 220 lifters. Without wraps it's top 10 of all time, including non-tested feds. Doubling it in a e1rm calculator is well into ATWR range.

My bad, that's a typo and lack of proof-reading. I meant 250kg!

All good!