alek wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 12:36 pm
Just recommend StrongLifts. All the good stuff without the baggage, or power cleans.
this ^.
...and if I recall correctly, StrongLifts problem was the progression loading with 5x5 sets.
I always thought if you just "added 5#" a week (2.5# for BP/OHP) instead of every session, it would work better.
(IOW: repeat 3 workouts in a row BEFORE going up)
Inverstone wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 1:13 pm
I haven't looked at StrongLifts for a long time. I'll go back and compare, thanks alek.
You’re welcome! The diet advice was good, too. It has been a while, but it was pretty good, no-brainer stuff like eat plenty of fruits, veggies, and quality, lean protein without making yourself fat.
Technique/form stuff was okay; Alan Thrall and BBM have too much free stuff out there to need to spend a ton, if anything, on that kind of stuff.
alek wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 12:36 pm
Just recommend StrongLifts. All the good stuff without the baggage, or power cleans.
this ^.
...and if I recall correctly, StrongLifts problem was the progression loading with 5x5 sets.
I always thought if you just "added 5#" a week (2.5# for BP/OHP) instead of every session, it would work better.
(IOW: repeat 3 workouts in a row BEFORE going up)
I did pretty well with it, and the paid app—$10 at the time—would go down to 3x5, 3x3, 1x3 + backoffs automatically given a number of failures/resets.
LoudMuffin wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 1:14 pmI don't know what happened but it seems like a lot less reasonable people seem to be into The Brand™ than there used to be.
Because they were reasonable, they questioned elements of The Brand™. And so they were removed, one way or another.
I feel like Reynolds, as flawed as he is, was probably the only person keeping that shit show from going off the deep end.
Yes. Because he was actually training people ongoing. This tends to keep you grounded.
alek wrote: ↑Tue May 26, 2020 2:27 pmIt has been a while, but it was pretty good, no-brainer stuff like eat plenty of fruits, veggies, and quality, lean protein without making yourself fat.
Only 4% of Australian adults - and I don't imagine the US, UK etc are much better - get the recommended 5 serves of vegies a day, and almost two-thirds are overweight or obese. The "no-brainer stuff" is all they need for... well, a couple of years at least.
mgil wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 9:37 am
And then he posts a video of a kid dive-bombing 295x5.
I think he also runs the gym that posts a lot of high, per the book, squats on Instagram.
Look at the very last example he posted in that thread.
Responding to ^ and the negative comments on it.
What's wrong with grinding out a set like that for a young kid at peak ability to recover?
(My son is 16 and intense wrestling will start up again soon, so I'd like to help him maximize his gains during the lockdown).
I did not think that set looked to bad. I have certainly seen far worse. The issue comes from the chiseled in stone brought down from the mountain training plan.
Next week or maybe even next workout that kid is supposed to add 10 lbs. The following week the same thing. In a few weeks time he will be entering the promised land of injury.
Getting really good at grinding out heavy fives on Starting Strength Novice Linear Progression is ideal for one very specific purpose - grinding out heavy fives on Starting Strength Novice Linear Progression.
If he has other fitness goals like most of us do there are almost certainly better options for the point he is at in his training.
My guess is that most of the SSCs out in the wild, not under Rip's thumb (who I assume went with Barbell Logic) would probably dial back the intensity a bit if they saw a client do even one set of five that grindy.
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 7:22 amWhat's wrong with grinding out a set
GrainsAndGains wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 8:41 am
Getting really good at grinding out heavy fives on Starting Strength Novice Linear Progression is ideal for one very specific purpose - grinding out heavy fives
I don't have huge issues with grindy sets of fahve (though I strongly dislike the very different rates of knee and hip extension...though -- to be fair to the coach -- he didn't like that either). But - yeah - what the hell's the point of a grindy 5?
Grinders with very-submax loads (like less than 90% max) just seem..pointless. I guess there's the "voluntary hardship" or "reps to commune with Christ" thing. But that's not something I value.
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 7:22 amWhat's wrong with grinding out a set
GrainsAndGains wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 8:41 am
Getting really good at grinding out heavy fives on Starting Strength Novice Linear Progression is ideal for one very specific purpose - grinding out heavy fives
I don't have huge issues with grindy sets of fahve (though I strongly dislike the very different rates of knee and hip extension...though -- to be fair to the coach -- he didn't like that either). But - yeah - what the hell's the point of a grindy 5?
Grinders with very-submax loads (like less than 90% max) just seem..pointless. I guess there's the "voluntary hardship" or "reps to commune with Christ" thing. But that's not something I value.
Grinding with heavy relative loads is fine.
Not to mention that the vast majority of these kids are training for sports of some type, and that grinding out slow reps with inconsistent form at 85% is among the least useful ways to build traits (power, coordination, muscle mass) that will translate to athleticism.
But mah power is proportionate to force and force is just strength which is just load on the bar
Now, I'm really confused. Are you guys saying that grindy fives makes a growing boy slow ("least useful...to build...power", "fiber-type shifting")? But grindy singles or doubles ("submax loads are pointless") doesn't?
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 10:12 am
Are you guys saying that grindy fives makes a growing boy slow ("least useful...to build...power", "fiber-type shifting")? But grindy singles or doubles ("submax loads are pointless") doesn't?
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 10:12 am
Now, I'm really confused. Are you guys saying that grindy fives makes a growing boy slow ("least useful...to build...power", "fiber-type shifting")? But grindy singles or doubles ("submax loads are pointless") doesn't?
Correct.
On what basis? I thought fives was a good compromise among all the conflicting messages (including that 20 or more reps are great for wrestling bc they build stamina).
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 10:34 amOn what basis?
On the basis that 1) slow reps, 2) performed in fatigue, 3) with submaximal loads are detrimental to strength and power. You can look up studies conducted by a researcher named "Pareja-Blanco" if you're looking for lab-evidence.
In a 5RM, the fastest/most powerful (peak wattage) reps are usually reps 1-2. Reps 3,4,5 are much slower. Why? Mechanistically, what's happening? Do I want that stimulus? (spoiler: no I do not. My very, very fast twitch muscle fibers (IIX) shift into literally slower twitch muscle fibers to adapt to the very specific conditioning demands of a 5RM).
Practical advice: do 3-4 doubles with the same load you'd use for a 5RM. Save the grindy reps for 3RM and heavier loads.
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 10:34 amI thought fives was a good compromise among all the conflicting messages
5s at 20RM? 10RM? 5s @ 7RM? 5@ 5RM? Those are all very different stimuli.
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 10:34 amOn what basis?
On the basis that 1) slow reps, 2) performed in fatigue, 3) with submaximal loads are detrimental to strength and power. You can look up studies conducted by a researcher named "Pareja-Blanco" if you're looking for lab-evidence.
In a 5RM, the fastest/most powerful (peak wattage) reps are usually reps 1-2. Reps 3,4,5 are much slower. Why? Mechanistically, what's happening? Do I want that stimulus? (spoiler: no I do not. My very, very fast twitch muscle fibers (IIX) shift into literally slower twitch muscle fibers to adapt to the very specific conditioning demands of a 5RM).
Practical advice: do 3-4 doubles with the same load you'd use for a 5RM. Save the grindy reps for 3RM and heavier loads.
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 10:34 amI thought fives was a good compromise among all the conflicting messages
5s at 20RM? 10RM? 5s @ 7RM? 5@ 5RM? Those are all very different stimuli.
I'm only looking for research if it's worthy of being relied on. The gym-teacher level of advice has always been 3 sets of 8 to 12 reps, with the last reps being hard, but I've been suspicious that (to the extant that it's valid) includes a "building muscle" component -- I'm interested in optimizing strength-training for a weight class sport.
I put a lot of faith in your view. So why the fuck am I just hearing this advice now?
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 7:22 amWhat's wrong with grinding out a set like that for a young kid at peak ability to recover?
(My son is 16 and intense wrestling will start up again soon, so I'd like to help him maximize his gains during the lockdown).
Looks like he initiates the squat by lowering his ass first. Consider giving the cue to initiate the squat by pushing the knees out. The ass should drop straight down. It is a slight difference but it will keep him from pushing his ass back instead of dropping it straight down. Makes a big difference on the lower back and consistency of the movement. *That is a cue I read on BBM that made a difference for me.
Also, unless he intends to powerlift, have you considered switching to the HB squat? I couldn't imagine LB squatting AND performing in a sport. My lower back would murder me.
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 5:28 pm So why the fuck am I just hearing this advice now?
Dunno man. I've been yammering about about doing more sets of fewer reps at a given load for years.
So I've not been listening.
The boy's squats are all high. His deadlift numbers are pretty good. But his BP and OHP numbers need work. (He had a nerve injury that held him back from upper body training, which is maybe part of the upper body issue) The freestyle wrestling season (with everybody in the country in the cadet (16U) and junior (18U) training for the US Open known as "Fargo") was officially canceled today, so now is the time to narrow the physical gap with kids like below, a high school sophomore.
So how about he keeps the BP and OHP weight, but switches from 3 sets of 5 to 5 sets of three, continuing to try to micro-load increase each session, then transition to 5 sets of 2 when needed. Maybe with some back-off sets of 8 to 12 reps at, say, 70% of the workout load?
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 5:28 pm So why the fuck am I just hearing this advice now?
Dunno man. I've been yammering about about doing more sets of fewer reps at a given load for years.
Looked back when we were spitballing some of these ideas. Probably about three months after I started limiting heavy grinders and started breaking up sets, a hit an easy 495x1@8 on squat.
DoctorWho wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 5:55 pmSo how about he keeps the BP and OHP weight, but switches from 3 sets of 5 to 5 sets of three, continuing to try to micro-load increase each session, then switch to 5 sets of 2. Maybe with some back-off sets of 8 to 12 at, say, 70% of the workout load?
Yup. Sounds good.
If he can hack more work each session, do more. So...maybe 6 sets of 3 with the same load he'd use for 3 sets of 5 (then maybe 1-2 backoffs if he isn't totally spent).
