My squat form is a dumpster fire

[PatrickDB]

Background: I'm a novice lifter in Boston and there are no SSCs around here, so I've been working by myself to learn to squat. I've posted about this in my log, but was encouraged to post here to get more input. An important background fact is that I squat with a slight shim to fix a tibial leg length discrepancy. More detailed information about me and my training history can be found in the first post of my log, or just ask here.

The problem: my squat is a mess. I've got lumbar flexion and a wacky bar path.

Things I've tried: "reaching back" with my butt, feeling the weight on my midfoot, widening and narrowing stance, shoving knees out hard at the bottom, keeping knees back, staying as tight as possible. It's possible I just need to try harder with one of these cues, but so far they haven't worked for me. I have read the squat section of The Book multiple times.

What I'm looking for: any suggestions you might have to help fix this. I'll try them all at my next workout and post the video here.

Suggestions so far (from my log): practicing "supermans" and trying to voluntary contract my lumbar erectors, contracting my thoracic erectors and lats hard and keeping the chest up and maintaining that extension throughout the lift.

Guide to the videos: the first video is from today. Two warmups of 185x3, then four working sets of 200x5. The weight felt very comfortable, so any form deviations are entirely my fault. The second video is from last week (with a different angle), and I've forwarded to the squats. There are sets of 5 at 185, 205, and 215.

[Shane]

Dumpster fire? Nah. I do like the Nov 15 squats better - seems like you have a little wider stance? It's letting you lean into it a bit more. Your shins are very upright in the 20th vid - knees almost behind toes - which with your leg length/torso ratio probably isn't comfy. Hard to apples and apples the two angles though. Were you trying different things in those 2 vids?

I can't see the lumbar flexion, even on your grindy good-morning rep at 3:48 (15th Nov). Really can't. You may rock onto your heels a bit at times. Relatively long legs and short torso can mean fun dialing in a squat, but really, I would be unfussed about these. Keep on squatting man.

[PatrickDB]

Dumpster fire? Nah. I do like the Nov 15 squats better - seems like you have a little wider stance? It's letting you lean into it a bit more. Your shins are very upright in the 20th vid - knees almost behind toes - which with your leg length/torso ratio probably isn't comfy. Hard to apples and apples the two angles though. Were you trying different things in those 2 vids?

Yeah, it was suggested in my log that I try "sitting back" more, and the effect was to change where my knees were. I agree the November 15 ones were more comfortable and probably had less flexion. With my knees that far back, I feel like I don't have enough space for all my parts and my back ends up rounding so I can squeeze in. (No offense meant to the person who suggested it! It was a good thing to try.)

I'm curious if my bar path is any better with the knees more forward. I'll check it out Wednesday. Maybe keep the knees forward and working on thoracic extension/lat tightness is the ticket.

[Shane]

Yeah, it was suggested in my log that I try "sitting back" more, and the effect was to change where my knees were. I agree the November 15 ones were more comfortable and probably had less flexion. With my knees that far back, I feel like I don't have enough space for all my parts and my back ends up rounding so I can squeeze in. (No offense meant to the person who suggested it! It was a good thing to try.)

I'm curious if my bar path is any better with the knees more forward. I'll check it out Wednesday. Maybe keep the knees forward and working on thoracic extension/lat tightness is the ticket.

Cool. I still don't see the flexion. What's a point in time in the video where you think it's obvious?

[d0uevenlift]

You may think your knees are too vertical or being held back too far, but that is clearly not the case. How tall are you?

I'm 6'1" and my knees don't travel that far forward. There might be some differences in anthropometry here, but I don't think how vertical your shins should/shouldn't be isn't the main concern.



You're getting fairly relaxed at the bottom during some reps, and it's causing that slight bit of lumbar flexion and your knees to punch forward a little. Try the sitting back thing one more time with a hair wider stance, and the other stuff I mentioned in your log. Good luck, man!

Maybe @KOTJ can help, too. He's fixed some of my form issues with my upper back tightness and stuff.

[PatrickDB]

Cool. I still don't see the flexion. What's a point in time in the video where you think it's obvious?

In the video from today it seems clear to me it's present in all the sets. The angle of the lumbar changes at the bottom but the upper back remains the same. Hence, there must be flexion.

In the video from the 15th it's harder to see, but watch the angle of the belt.

I could be mistaken here.

You may think your knees are too vertical or being held back too far, but that is clearly not the case. How tall are you?

I'm 6'1" and my knees don't travel that far forward. There might be some differences in anthropometry here, but I don't think how vertical your shins should/shouldn't be isn't the main concern.

You're getting fairly relaxed at the bottom during some reps, and it's causing that slight bit of lumbar flexion and your knees to punch forward a little. Try the sitting back thing one more time with a hair wider stance, and the other stuff I mentioned in your log. Good luck, man!

Maybe @KOTJ can help, too. He's fixed some of my form issues with my upper back tightness and stuff.

I'm only 5'10", but I think the determining factor here is limb proportions, not absolute height. My legs are relatively long compared to my torso, and my femur/tibia ratio seems larger than yours. You also don't squat with a raised heel. I've seen pictures of people with similar proportions squatting with the knees pretty far out over the toes, and I'm honestly confused about where mine should go.

I don't feel like I'm relaxing anything, though maybe I am. Instead, I feel like I'm getting shoved into that bottom position. However, I also don't consciously contract my lumbar erectors. I'm not sure if that'll help. I vaguely recall being told not to do this because it leads to people hyperextending their spine.

I'll definitely try to implement those suggestions next time. Thanks again for the help!

[Shane]

You may think your knees are too vertical or being held back too far, but that is clearly not the case. How tall are you?

I'm 6'1" and my knees don't travel that far forward. There might be some differences in anthropometry here, but I don't think how vertical your shins should/shouldn't be isn't the main concern.

You're getting fairly relaxed at the bottom during some reps, and it's causing that slight bit of lumbar flexion and your knees to punch forward a little. Try the sitting back thing one more time with a hair wider stance, and the other stuff I mentioned in your log. Good luck, man!

Maybe @KOTJ can help, too. He's fixed some of my form issues with my upper back tightness and stuff.

I went back and had a better look at the 20 Nov vid. You're right man. I'm going to walk back my vertical shins concern. It was this kind of configuration that didn't look optimal. Those knees must be seriously out there to the side get into that position with what looks like a pretty narrow stance. I can also now see a bit of the flexion. No wins for me! I still like the wider stance squats from the 15th much more.

[mgil]

Belt position is a variable that might help.

For back squats, that’s where the belt is the lowest, for me. In the video, if your belt was about 1.5” lower, specifically in the back, it would sit right at the flexion point. Now that doesn’t mean that the belt is going to stop you from flexing your lumbar spine, but the feel of it being there might help you maintain extension a bit better.

[Manveer]

It seems to take a while to develop hard bracing, and usually people don't know that their brace sucks. Practicing bracing harder will help. I have used the cue "tighten your abs like you're about to get punched in the stomach". This might help the lumbar flexion - not sure. It will help your squat though.

You are kind of tentative going into the hole and there isn't much bounce. You'll develop that feel for where the bottom is with time and practice, but feeling it out and slowing down before the bottom is just going to make things harder for you.

[cwd]

I see low back flexion on both squat sessions, at the bottom. It's not a whole lot, but it's more than I allow myself.

Does squatting hurt you?

I'm not a coach, I won't try to give you yet another cue to think about

[BostonRugger]

I came here for a dumpster fire. Am disappoint.

As said above, I don't see anything seriously wrong with these. You could use some more bounce, like Manveer said. My guess is that your own low opinion of your squats is making you hesitant. These squats aren't bad. Squeeze the hell out of your abs, drop down into the hole and fire up with authority.

Also, I'm jelly that you get to train at CSC. Good equipment, lots of iron and some strong folks. Micah and John are good dudes too (even if Micah is a River Rat).

[AaronM]

fakenews

Where's the dumpster or the fire?

[PatrickDB]

I'm starting to wonder if squatting in flat soled shoes will do anything. Ditching the heels helped me on the deadlift, so why not here? Worth a shot, I guess.

Does squatting hurt you?

Not yet...

Also, I'm jelly that you get to train at CSC. Good equipment, lots of iron and some strong folks. Micah and John are good dudes too (even if Micah is a River Rat).

It's great. Shoot me a PM if you're ever planning on being there.

[cgeorg]

Anyone else think staying a little more upright at the bottom would help? It looks like femur length being a little shorter is causing the bar to get out over the toes - it was the main thing I noticed at least. A narrower stance would help the hips get back a little further which could also clean that up, but... ok I don't know what comes after the but.

[d0uevenlift]

The more I watch the vids, the more it looks like he’s trying to squat with high bar form while in a low bar position as far as bar placement.

[PatrickDB]

Threw 185 on the bar today and spent over an hour squatting and filming. Some selected sets are below.

Switching to a wider stance, perhaps shoulder width or wider, instantly fixed the bar path. So that's a win. I think the suggestion to wear the belt lower also helped here.

However, I was not able to totally eliminate the lumbar movement. Maybe this is being too picky, since it seems I'm not doing worse than just going into neutral. Some of my problem is probably related to trying to go too deep, so I experimented with cutting depth off a bit. This greatly reduced it, but I fear I ended up squatting high. It's really hard to tell from this footage, since the camera is placed at a bad angle to judge depth and is not totally level with the floor.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. I think trying to cut depth by about an inch while staying tight may be the ultimate solution, but I'll need to get a rear shot Friday to confirm this and make sure I'm still squatting below parallel. The one rear shot in the video below was before I figured out I needed to cut depth.