perman wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:34 amSo less benching and more chinning and or rowing generally leads to equal or better benches then? I would disagree with that
I think I laid it out clearly. When you factor in the times when someone's injuries make their lifts
zero, a more cautious approach with supporting exercises will lead to more sustainable numbers.
you won't necessarily get a shoulder issue if you don't chin/row "enough" or if don't have "enough" pulling strength, just as how chinning/rowing "enough" or having "enough" pulling strength won't necessarily prevent a shoulder issue.
You can always find someone who did dumb shit for twenty years and was fine, and a 20yo who herniated three discs deadlifting 60kg - I fixed one up a year or two back, in fact. This is the "but my uncle ate a pound of tobacco and smoked a pound of lard a day and lived to 98" story. Nobody cares: we care about probabilities. We strive to make injuries less likely.
Practicing doing lifts more often can in fact lead to better technique, which prevents shoulder issues.
You're assuming all injuries are due to poor technique. In fact they can be due to previous injuries flaring up again, and quite commonly due to overuse. That's why I began with the example of the cricketers - their shoulders don't get fucked up because of poor throwing, they get fucked up because of throwing 10,000 times a year. The typical national-level swimmer in their early 20s does 9 miles a day and has 2,500 revolutions of their shoulder. A day. Would you suppose any injuries they get are from poor technique? Their technique was sorted out ten years ago, the issues now are overuse.
Now I'm not saying your stance here is exactly wrong, I just don't perceive that much risk in programs that don't have much chins/rows personally, and in fact unbalanced programming tends to be necessary when things stall in the intermediate/advanced stage.
I don't think there's huge risk, either. Likewise, there's not much risk when I'm driving - but I still wear my seatbelt.
If someone could legitimately correlate risk for shoulder issue to pulling strength, technique requirements, training age, and so on, one could figure out which factors actually matter most.
Unfortunately we'll never get them, only observational studies. One of the reasons exercise science studies are almost always on noobs is that... well, if you got a dozen good athletes, would
you experiment with their training for the sake of some study? Hell no, you've got a season to win!