lumbar flexion in the squat

[JohnHanleyFanAccount]

Here's something that's bugged me for a long time, and I'm glad to finally have a place to discuss it.

First, a meta-point: does it seem to you that SSCs in Egypt will almost never talk about lumbar flexion in the back squat, to the point of ignoring direct questions about it in form check threads? I can try to dig up old TomC threads where this happens if anyone disagrees, but I definitely recall this. They're really cagey about it, and don't you dare use the words "butt wink"! This is more or less the position in the technique FAQ too.

Second, the actual point: it seems every male has at least a little lumbar movement when going below parallel in the squat. (Curiously, most women I've seen squat can do it with an extended or even hyperextended lumbar the entire way down.) Does this actually matter, either for safety or force production?

If you watch the technique forums, pretty much every guy does it. Some more than others, but there's always a touch of movement as you go below parallel. Not one single man I've seen there actually maintains a hard "neutral spine" arch. The rear oblique angles sometimes obscure this, but if you look from the side, you'll always see it.

I've come to accept this as a fact of life. Your butt is always gonna be winking, even if just a little. Egypt is littered with threads asking about how to fix it, and the stock response is always to brace harder and shove the knees out harder. But this empirically doesn't work for a lot of people, including me. Neither does stretching. I'm pretty sure it's just a consequence of the way our (male) hips are built.

From a safety standpoint I don't really care. An uninjured back is a surprisingly robust thing, and oly lifters get away with a lot worse on a regular basis and I don't see an epidemic of lumbar injures in their population (or among powerlifters from squatting).

From an efficiency standpoint you're probably losing power, but if you can't fix it, what's the point of worrying about this?

Comments and abuse are appreciated. Maybe I'm just stupid and uncoordinated and need to shove my knees out harder.

[d0uevenlift]

Here's something that's bugged me for a long time, and I'm glad to finally have a place to discuss it.

First, a meta-point: does it seem to you that SSCs in Egypt will almost never talk about lumbar flexion in the back squat, to the point of ignoring direct questions about it in form check threads? I can try to dig up old TomC threads where this happens if anyone disagrees, but I definitely recall this. They're really cagey about it, and don't you dare use the words "butt wink"! This is more or less the position in the technique FAQ too.

One day, Rip just decided he didn't like the term "butt wink" and everyone followed suit. SSCs would then do one of two things: make a long-winded retort about why it's called "lumbar flexion" and not "butt wink" and then refuse to answer OP's question, or there would be a long-winded retort about why it's called "lumbar flexion" and not "butt wink" and then finally answer OP's question. Obnoxious.

Second, the actual point: it seems every male has at least a little lumbar movement when going below parallel in the squat. (Curiously, most women I've seen squat can do it with an extended or even hyperextended lumbar the entire way down.) Does this actually matter, either for safety or force production?

If you watch the technique forums, pretty much every guy does it. Some more than others, but there's always a touch of movement as you go below parallel. Not one single man I've seen there actually maintains a hard "neutral spine" arch. The rear oblique angles sometimes obscure this, but if you look from the side, you'll always see it.

I wouldn't say every male does it. As a grumpy old man once said, "You are not a careful observer."

Sometimes what you're seeing is slight over-extension going into normal extension, and then back to slight over-extension all over again.

From an efficiency standpoint you're probably losing power, but if you can't fix it, what's the point of worrying about this?

Comments and abuse are appreciated. Maybe I'm just stupid and uncoordinated and need to shove my knees out harder.

You answered your own question.

[JohnHanleyFanAccount]

Perhaps every male doesn't do it. I shouldn't speak in absolutes. But it definitely does happen.

I don't know. I value my spinal disks, and I wish the SS peeps would just own up to the fact that going below parallel means going into neutral or worse for a lot of guys, you know? I've stretched and I've shoved and I've braced and I've squatted, and that flattened lower back is still there (even with a raised heel).

I think their position that lifting shoes are a necessary piece of gear is a sort of tacit admission of this, though.

[d0uevenlift]

Perhaps every male doesn't do it. I shouldn't speak in absolutes. But it definitely does happen.

I don't know. I value my spinal disks, and I wish the SS peeps would just own up to the fact that going below parallel means going into neutral or worse for a lot of guys, you know? I've stretched and I've shoved and I've braced and I've squatted, and that flattened lower back is still there (even with a raised heel).

I think their position that lifting shoes are a necessary piece of gear is a sort of tacit admission of this, though.

The question is, how bad is your lumbar flexion? Is it as bad as Pete Rubish's where it's noticeable even from the front? Or is it slight, maybe even unnoticeable to the untrained eye? Maybe you should post a video in the technique section here at let some of the more experienced lifters tell you whether you're going to hurt yourself.

Also, not every SSC says that lifting shoes are necessary. Most would admit that they recommend Oly shoes for lifting because of their stability and incompressible soles.

[ChasingCurls69]

I'd second that over-extension into neutral is more likely to be the case than neutral into flexion.

[OCG]

There's so many different things here that it's hard to say. Maybe you're coming down too fast and not focusing on keeping tight enough. Maybe you're overextended. Maybe you lack the flexiblity/build to low bar squat, or maybe you're just holding the bar wrong.

Bottom line is, maintaining perfect extension in the squat is damned hard, and there are lots of ways to fuck it up.

[cwd]

My back is extremely intolerant of flexion, and I am old-man inflexible, and I squat below parallel both low- and high-bar.

My back hurts right now from doing "toes to bar" exercises with my shitty hamstring flexibility and much (unloaded!) lumbar flexion.
But I can squat below parallel w/o making my back hurt.

Yes, I wear lifting shoes. I have no idea if HanlyFan would see "butt wink" on my video or not, but whatever my back is doing, it's not harmful.

[GrizzlyAdam]

it seems every male has at least a little lumbar movement when going below parallel in the squat.

I've always had a bit of flexion. It was hard for me to teach myself to go below parallel, because I would instinctively stop just before allowing any movement back there.

In the StSt podcast about back rehab, Mac Ward said that during his recovery he was unable to squat below parallel because there is inevitably a tiny bit of lumbar flexion. Rip agreed, and said that it's not a big deal most of the time, but with a back injury it could be problematic.

[JohnHanleyFanAccount]

Perhaps every male doesn't do it. I shouldn't speak in absolutes. But it definitely does happen.

I don't know. I value my spinal disks, and I wish the SS peeps would just own up to the fact that going below parallel means going into neutral or worse for a lot of guys, you know? I've stretched and I've shoved and I've braced and I've squatted, and that flattened lower back is still there (even with a raised heel).

I think their position that lifting shoes are a necessary piece of gear is a sort of tacit admission of this, though.

The question is, how bad is your lumbar flexion? Is it as bad as Pete Rubish's where it's noticeable even from the front?

I looked at Rubish's YouTube channel to see what you're talking about. It looks like his spine is going into full flexion during his squat at 12:59 here:


Mine is not near that terrible, and exists in the gray area around "neutral spine." Sometimes I wonder if I just need to tighten up more. I feel a little hip tuck at the bottom of every rep, like the iliac crests coming forward and shoving the belt into my ribs ever so slightly. I would love the movement so much more if I could get to the bottom and solidly bounce off my hamstrings without that slackening sensation. Alas, this seems necessary to break parallel.

[KyleSchuant]

The anonymous OP asked me to post in this thread, for some reason, but OCG has said it best already.

There's so many different things here that it's hard to say. Maybe you're coming down too fast and not focusing on keeping tight enough. Maybe you're overextended. Maybe you lack the flexiblity/build to low bar squat, or maybe you're just holding the bar wrong.

Bottom line is, maintaining perfect extension in the squat is damned hard, and there are lots of ways to fuck it up.

I would just add, since the OP asked, why it matters. Because the spine is really good at supporting a load, and pretty shitty at lifting a load. When you look at its structure of alternating hard and soft bits, you can see it'd be good for damping out shocks. But each joint in a machine is a point of failure - it's not just the bone, but ligaments, tendons, bursae and so on - so the spine has more points of failure than for example the hip. Thus, lifting by bending the hip is safer than lifting by bending the spine.

If you bend a joint, then the muscles have to work to straighten it up again. The muscles around the spine are smaller in overall mass than those around the hip. Thus, lifting by bending the hip is more effective than lifting by bending the spine.

Lumbar flexion thus leads to a less safe and less effective squat (or deadlift etc) than lumbar extension would.

But it may be minor and not worth worrying about in that particular individual. I tend to be stricter if the person has a history of back injury, is weaker or older, and less strict if they no injury history, are stronger or younger. And it may be that their movement has other issues that are more important right now. Nobody's lift is perfect, but you can't work on everything at once, so you prioritise.