Snatch form check

[Testiclaw]

So you're still extending backwards rather than upwards, but it's GREAT that you're realizing it and seeing it on your own.

A drill I use extensively to get people to understand the extension is this one:



I prefer lifters to use a dowel, first, and a bar after, and to do it from the low-hang below the knee. Doing it from below the knee does a few things:

It makes it more like the full movement.

You can't slide your knees forward early because you'll hit the dowel/bar.

You have to stay over the bar to make it work.

Try to do multiple jumps and land in the same place: don't move forward or backward, and you'll see that if you extend with your shoulders back you'll jump backward, so to get a powerful jump you need to extend the legs forcefully but stay over the bar.

This is the "explosion" that lifters really, really miss.

[damufunman]

This still here?
Did the jumps this past weekend, felt odd. Dowel was too light I think.


Hang snatches on Tuesday:

[Testiclaw]

Your jumps look great for your first time with them, really. They feel awkward because they force you to extend your legs and stay over the bar, which isn't what you're doing when you snatch.

It's a perfect way to compare:



Pretty striking difference in trajectory, isn't there? In the jump you could easily see how driving your elbows up, always higher than your wrists, would result in the bar being skimmed close to the body and aid in pulling yourself under to receive the turnover. In the snatch? That bar is looping, and it doesn't matter what you do with the arms because nothing is over the bar...there's no way to pull yourself under, so you have a slow turnover and catch.

As you add weight to the bar the straight line that your body makes will be pointing behind you. That is, if you're jumping with an empty bar you can stay perfectly perpendicular to the floor during extension, but as the bar gets heavier and heavier you'll end up extending into a straight line, but with your head farther behind your feet. That's a product of resisting the weight of the bar while maintaining balance over the middle of the foot.

Here's a good example (he's still pretty far from his max, but you can see the slight "backward" direction as 30kg and then another 20kg get added to the bar, compared to his 70kg extension):



Here are some heavier snatches;



Notice that their bodies are extending into a straight line, even if that straight line points slightly behind them. But they're not throwing the hips forward and the shoulders backwards, like you're doing.

One of the most difficult aspects of the snatch is to understand that it's counter-intuitive: you can't do what you think is right, or what feels right. It's like if the bar is forward people tend to lean farther back and push the hips forward and shoulders back...it feels like it's supposed to make the trajectory take the bar behind you, but it only makes the forward trajectory worse. Trust the positions, instead!

[Testiclaw]

So you just sent me the link to your 205lb snatch...first, congratulations! 100kg will be yours soon!

I'm at home for the weekend, drinking, so let's take a looksie at your 205 snatch and compare it to your 185 snatch that was posted at the beginning of this thread;

First, the power position. The "power position" will be described or defined at different points depending on who you talk to, but for the sake of this thread we'll take it to be at the initiation of the second pull (Ruskie's call it the "explosion" or "leg explosion") and when the heels just begin to leave the floor;



It's subtle, but the big idea to realize is that you're still over the bar in your 205, and you're already behind the bar in your 185. This is a huge, huge improvement even if it looks very slight in the frame-by-frame!

For comparison, we'll use the same image I posted on the first page of this thread;



As soon as Rebeka's heels are leaving the floor and she's initiating the explosion/second pull, her shoulders are still covering the bar. We can see that your 185 snatch (left) your shoulders are behind the bar, but on your 205 snatch (right) you're covering the bar. This is HUGE.

A good cue is to remember where your chin is: chin over the bar until it's in the hip, and only then can the chin move behind the bar.

At the point of extension the differences are, again, slight, but important;



We see that the arms are slightly longer on your 205 snatch (right) than the 185 (left), and, your shoulders aren't as far back in the 205 as they are in the 185. As you get stronger you'll end up with a more and more vertical orientation with 205-pounds. Keeping the arms long and loose until the extension is complete will be key: maintaining long arms until extension is complete is the reason why some amazing snatchers tend to give the impression of "pausing" at the point of explosion before initiating their pull under the bar.

And, finally, we'll look at the position of the elbows after extension;



Again, it's a very small difference, but you can see that the bar proximity is a tad closer to the torso, and, the elbows are oriented a little bit higher in the 205 (right) than they are in the 185 (left).

Again, this is a big deal!

You're making progress, and you're right on the cusp of an "a-ha moment" when things finally click together and you make a jump to the next plateau of training. The difficult part about the snatch is that it's counter-intuitive, what you're supposed to do doesn't necessarily feel like what you're supposed to do, but you have to trust the positions!

Stay over the bar longer (chin over the bar all the way until the bar is in the hip) and punch the floor with the legs at the end of extension (keep pushing the floor with the feet as you add the hip extension. If you try to think about leg extension after hip extension you'll be too slow, it all happens to quickly!) and drive the elbows to the sky (scarecrow snatches as a primer will be key for this!) and you'll be knocking down 100kg before you know it.

Much better, my man, what looks like a little PR to most folks looks like incredible improvement to me!

[mgil]

Continues to be an awesome thread.

[damufunman]

@Testiclaw thanks for the feedback!! Yeah seeing that frame at the power position of 185 vs. 205 even I can tell the 205 is way better! Starting to make not sense now, and I thought the positioning was getting better last few weeks, just wasn't sure. I was trying to exploded more upward, and thought u was doing it, but yeah it's subtle, and I have developed a good eye/understanding of the differences yet.
Once again, thanks for all the help feedback, it's been awesome. Onwards to 225 lbs! (Damn, should've gotten the kg plates so I'd only have to hit 100kg...)

[damufunman]

High Hang Snatches from Monday. Tried focusing on pulling under more aggressively, think bar path was wonky, or I just didn't get tight after I got under it.
Last 2 sets at 145. (Did 135, 140 and 145 before these, so a bit fatigued). Also probably went a tad too heavy for triples...

[Testiclaw]

Shoulders back too early, not enough leg drive into the floor during extension, elbows too low!

Think chin/shoulders over the bar until it's in the hip, and only THEN can your shoulders go back.

Think punching the floor with your feet or quads or knees during extension. If you try to drive your legs into the floor after your hips you won't be able to do it: the movement happens to quickly. So you have to be pushing your feet into the floor the entire time and "add" hip extension at the end.

Long, loose arms, with high elbows as soon as you've reached full extension. Think hips to belly-button! The bar can't go out, it has to go up!

[damufunman]

Shoulders back too early, not enough leg drive into the floor during extension, elbows too low!

Think chin/shoulders over the bar until it's in the hip, and only THEN can your shoulders go back.

Think punching the floor with your feet or quads or knees during extension. If you try to drive your legs into the floor after your hips you won't be able to do it: the movement happens to quickly. So you have to be pushing your feet into the floor the entire time and "add" hip extension at the end.

Long, loose arms, with high elbows as soon as you've reached full extension. Think hips to belly-button! The bar can't go out, it has to go up!

Yeah I see that compared to my 205. Is there anything in particular to think about from the high hang, or would a slightly lower hang position help to get in to the right position? The power position is more a dynamic point, so maybe starting at zero speed may not match the intent of a snatch from lower and it would be good to go from above the knee or something?
Really what I'm trying to do here is force a strong pull under, but with a bit more weight than a tall snatch. Does this approach make sense?

[damufunman]

Here's some hip snatches from tonight. Think the last trip, which I got in slow motion, I pulled under the bar a little better. Still a far cry from where I need to be, but the right direction. Still need to with on consistency, one of the sets was a shitshow...
ETA guess I should include that one... at the bottom. That was set 2 of 4 at working weight, last 2 sets are the other ones shown.

[damufunman]

@Testiclaw Hey dude, quick check in here. Working to heavier and heavier sub max singles, got up to 205 this past weekend that was easy, except I missed it (actually missed all but one single on my way up... oops, but 200 was good, well I made it at least). Think it was just an off day, but could you take a look? Think I just humped it too far forward, but not quite sure.

[Testiclaw]

@damufunman & @seanherbison, I just finished a smoke and am getting myself a drink and then I'll sit down and pick apart both of your current lifts that you tagged me in.

[Testiclaw]

First, starting position and first pull;



Starting position is pretty good, the only change I'd make is to get your knees flush with your arms, which would mean raising your hips very slightly, and putting your shoulders on top of the bar, or covering the bar. It's minor, but will help a bit with not getting in your own way.

The actual first pull is a little wonky: you've extended your knees quite a bit while not moving the bar a lot, and given up a lot of your available leg power for the explosion. That will happen a bit when it gets heavy, sure, but you'll want to minimize it as much as you can. Helpful things to think about:

Keep the shoulders directly above the knees as you stand up. You can see in the third frame above that your knees are much farther behind your shoulders. Drive the knees out and be patient! The shoulders, bar, and hips all move up together.

Cover the bar with your chin all the way to your hips. That is, as you stand, make sure everything is moving together in one big unit rather than just the hips moving back while leaving the bar and your shoulders out front.

Second, initiating the explosion;



These two frames are captured right when your knees began to rebend as the second pull (I don't like that term, I prefer explosion) begins. This is way, way too early. I'd want you to continue straightening the legs and bringing the bar up to the middle of your thing (at least) before even thinking about the explosion. If you do it right it will feel like you've missed your chance to snatch.

Remember: the earlier you begin the explosion the more horizontal/forward force will be on the bar.

Here is a good example: notice how he keeps extending his knees as the bar passes the knee? This is what you want to do, rather than initiate explosion right as the bar passes or arrives at the knee.



Third, power position;



I'd prefer flat-feet at this time, but you're already rolling to the front of your feet. Our goal is to apply as much vertical force to the bar via leg and hip extension. I focus on leg extension for my lifters, and for this you'll want to be driving off of your entire foot. Weight stays focused on the front edge of the heel, but heels stay glued to the floor for as long as possible!



The third pull;

This is the highest point that your elbows reached during your third pull under the bar...



The bar has to remain close to you, and you have to aggressively pull yourself under the bar with all of the musculature of the upper back, shoulders, and arms. This becomes nearly impossible if your elbows are this low.

Coupled with this is footwork: you have to pick your feet up to give your body the clearance to get low faster. In essence you're removing your base/pillars of support and connection with the ground so your body can move unimpeded. Here we can see that you contact the floor with your feet almost immediately after the explosion, and well before you've given yourself a chance to pull yourself under the bar.

You can also see that you land on flat feet, but you're not balanced, which is why you continue to float forward as you receive the bar (notice the heels coming up in the second picture below:





The snatch from Maligov is a 90kg warm-up, so the weight is similar to yours, FYI.

[damufunman]

@Testiclaw Thank you again! This past workout was all wonky, I think I made a total of 3 snatches, so I cut it off early. I'm hoping much of the misses forward was just due to the balance issue you pointed out; a few you took at the power position a while back it looks like my foot is flat, so at least I know I can do it.
I've noticed during the first pull my back being very horizontal, been meaning to work on that but don't think about it during. Seems like some halting snatch deadlifts might help with a few things you mentioned here?
And yeah, still working on the third pull. I can't get the feet timing right, they just come up briefly then right back to the floor. I was thinking powers would be good to work on pulling under the bar more aggressively, though maybe not so good for foot transition timing?

[Testiclaw]

Halting snatch deadlifts are great for slowing things down and feeling the body move in concert. Doing a few floating halting deadlifts and then a floating snatch is something that's common in my place to get people to feel the bar path and balance.

The trick with the feet is to lift the knees and to lift them pretty high, and don't try to stomp or extend the legs to get to the ground faster, instead try to pull yourself down to the ground fast while the body and legs remain in a rigid squat'ish position. It will always feel like your feet are really high up in the air, but in reality they'll stay above the floor during the entire third pull.

Powers are good for trajectory and bar height, as well as finishing vertically and not backwards, and can be useful for learning how to drive off of the full foot, but the footwork is kind of the opposite from what we want for a full snatch.

Full snatch from the power position (torso vertical, utilizing only leg drive) and then really high-hang snatches can be useful for the pull under the bar.

And of course, soviet-style muscle snatches (no hook, no contact).